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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#111485
04/10/09 12:43 AM
04/10/09 12:43 AM
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Active Member 2023
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I suggest everyone listen/read Woody Whidden's presentation at the QOD conference in Andrews.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: William]
#111486
04/10/09 12:53 AM
04/10/09 12:53 AM
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So Salvation is a dynamic process. It is both an
1. Establish fact...
2. On going process... Very eloquent, Elle. Lots of cool concepts, some of which have taken more than one reading to fully process. But well done! I was wondering how you would separate #1 and #2 (if at all), in terms of the conditions of salvation, assuming we're speaking of both justification and sanctification in the above abstract. Evangelicals have traditionally taught:
F. Sanctification is a result of already being saved.
Adventists have traditionally taught:
F. Sanctification is a part of being saved. If I may presume to respond, not to answer for Elle, but to throw in my pennies. I look at justification as prescribing what it takes to be saved, and sanctification as describing what it means to be saved. IOW, justification is the condition for being saved, while sanctification is the condition of the saved. IOW2, justification is REQUIRED for salvation, while sanctification IS salvation. This all comes from a simple, but fundamental, paradigm. Q: What do we need to be saved from? A: Selfishness.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#111489
04/10/09 01:03 AM
04/10/09 01:03 AM
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M: I enjoyed reading what you all had to say about victory in Jesus. Most of the people I meet are operating under assumption that it is *not* possible in this lifetime to reach the point where their thoughts, words, and deeds are in perfect harmony with God's will. They believe Jesus makes up for their unavoidable sins and that it is in this sense that God considers them sinless and safe to save.
R: Mike, ??? Are your thoughts, words and deeds in perfect harmony with God's will?
M: I love it when this question comes up. It is usually asked to point out how ludicrous it is to believe such an experience is possible right now. I assume this is the idea behind your question. Here's how I like to answer this question. [Scriptures omitted by Rosangela]
R: You are wrong in your assumption. I don't think it's ludicrous to believe that such an experience is possible right now. . . I believe it's possible in this lifetime to reach the point where the Christian's thoughts, words, and deeds are in perfect harmony with God's will. You believe it is possible sometime in the future but you don't seem to believe it is possible here and now. You seem to think it is reached after years of sinning and repenting and discovering and overcoming unknown sins. Please post inspired passages to back up this idea. Thank you. However, until the Christian is mature enough to reach this point, Jesus makes up for his unavoidable sins and it is in this sense that God considers him sinless and safe to save. I must assume you disagree with this. I agree there are believers who experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. In such cases, Jesus does indeed make up for their sins of ignorance. However, I do not believe this is the type of believers John had in mind when he wrote 1 John 3:6-9. Instead John had in mind believers who are living in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree? What I disagree with is the way you put the two assertions in opposition to each other, as if one was right and the other was wrong. Please name the two assertions. I'm not sure what you're talking about. "Jesus loves His children, even if they err. They belong to Jesus and we are to treat them as the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ. Any unreasonable course pursued toward them is written in the books as against Jesus Christ. He keeps His eye upon them, and when they do their best, calling upon God for His help, be assured the service will be accepted, although imperfect.
Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, Take away the filthy garments from him, and clothe him with change of raiment. Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith." --Letter 17a, 1891, p. 8. (To Brother and Sister Ings, and Elder Fulton, Nov. 18, 1891.) I inserted the portion left out in the quote above. I like the way it reads. The following quote is very similar and includes insights that compliments the thought above: When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion. {FW 50.1} It is obvious to me that Ellen White is *not* describing people who are sinning and who need to repent to avoid damnation. The idea that Jesus mingles the merits of His blood with our best and acceptable works and service does not imply our best and acceptable works and service are sinful. Besides, as Teresa pointed out, how can the Christian think that he is "sinless" and, therefore, that he doesn't need Jesus to make up for his sins? Claiming the promises of God does not negate or nullify the merits of Jesus' blood as described above in the SOP quotes. "All have sinned." Therefore, all require the justifying blood and righteousness of Jesus to cover their sins until the day Jesus blots out their sins. Rosangela, I'll ask you a personal question. But please feel free to disregard it. Do you think the following promise describes your experience here and now? 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#111492
04/10/09 01:24 AM
04/10/09 01:24 AM
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i dont know if there are any on this board who believe it is ludicrous that we could become "sinless" here and now.
the objection, as i read it, is thinking that we are "sinless", quite dangerous, treacherous ground in my opinion. The post immediately after yours represents the thought you doubt anyone on this forum believes. It says it is not available "here and now". It happens at some future time. Also, you seem to think claiming the promises of God "here and now" is dangerous and treacherous ground. What do you do when you read 1 John 3:6-9? Do you think it applies to others but not to you? you will have to point out exactly where roseangela says it is not available "here and now" because i missed it. we werent discussing believing the word of God or "claiming promises" so your assumption of what i said does most certainly err.  you may think you have arrived in reading that passage, i do not think i have arrived. i would have to say that i disagree with how you make it work in your mind......
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#111495
04/10/09 01:39 AM
04/10/09 01:39 AM
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1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . .
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. this same letter starts out with these verses: 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#111500
04/10/09 02:26 AM
04/10/09 02:26 AM
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The following passage describes my experience while I am abiding in Jesus: What about 1Jn 1:8-10, as teresa already mentioned? When does one experience that?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: asygo]
#111506
04/10/09 02:45 AM
04/10/09 02:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding #111486, isn't justification salvation?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: asygo]
#111507
04/10/09 02:46 AM
04/10/09 02:46 AM
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I suggest everyone listen/read Woody Whidden's presentation at the QOD conference in Andrews. Ah, yes, Woody's near ebulent analysis especially on LGT. Smiling. Agree, a must read. Wonder if the ol' codger (said lovingly) would have been as overjoyed had he first noticed the youthful army of Andreasen enlistees not-so-quietly treading across his unprotracted vision? Sorry, Prof!  William
Last edited by William; 04/10/09 03:59 AM.
:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: William]
#111508
04/10/09 02:53 AM
04/10/09 02:53 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Nice list, William. Regarding the following: E. Justification is both a legal pardon and a making righteous of the person (but not apart from Christ). This seems to be a major bone of contention. That is, the idea that justification is the making righteous of the person who believes. But you're right. This is what Adventism was, straight from 1888. The point about sin being a state of being is, of course, another way of restating original sin. You did a nice job of listing, I trying to think of the right word, related concepts. Not the word I was looking for. "Isomorphic" might be better (but not the word I'm looking for either).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#111510
04/10/09 03:13 AM
04/10/09 03:13 AM
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That is, the idea that justification is the making righteous of the person who believes. But you're right. This is what Adventism was, straight from 1888. Indeed. “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5-7). Read together these are helpful when considering justification as salvation, among others: “Pardon and justification are one and the same thing” (FW 103). “God’s forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It [God’s forgiveness] is not only forgiveness for sin, but reclaiming from sin” (MB 114). “To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind” (RH 08-19-90). Glad you enjoyed. William
Last edited by William; 04/10/09 03:15 AM.
:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
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