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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #111665
04/12/09 03:42 PM
04/12/09 03:42 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Quote:
You seem to be saying the sinless experience you described above is not possible now. Did I understand you correctly? Do you think only the 144,000 are capable of reaching this kind of sinlessness? If so, what makes it possible for them then but not for us now? What is lacking that prevents us from being like Jesus now?

You asked, "So when I ask you if you are sinless, I'm asking if you never commit a sin." According to 1 John 3:6-9 I do not and cannot commit a sin while I'm abiding in Jesus? Are you also asking if I ever neglect to abide in Jesus and that if I do it is proof I cannot be like Jesus until the day He returns, that only the 144,000 can?

I'm not saying it isn't possible. I do believe it's possible. But I'm saying I don't know anyone who is sinless, beginning with myself. I really don't know what is lacking for us to abide 100% of the time in Jesus. Maybe a special endowement of the Spirit (the latter rain)?
Anyway, I consider that reaching this experience is reaching "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" which Ephesians 4:13 speaks about.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111667
04/12/09 03:48 PM
04/12/09 03:48 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Maybe a special endowement of the Spirit (the latter rain)?


Yes. This is what God started to try to give to us in 1888. The latter rain started to come in the form of a message. The message opens up a broader comprehension of the love and character of God, as well as deeper dimensions to the cross. These truths impact the motivations, which allows the Spirit to dig deeper, to cleanse us more thoroughly (Jones talks about this in some detail, btw, in the 1893 GCB).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111668
04/12/09 03:54 PM
04/12/09 03:54 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
You said, "'Salvation' is a broader term than 'justification.'" If that is correct, then your edit of Christ's words would have Him saying more than He actually said.


No, this doesn't follow at all. The context can make clear what a specific meaning is. For example, in the next chapter Jesus said, "Salvation has come to this house," in reference to Zacchaeus. Isn't is clear that Jesus was referring to Zacchaeus' justification?

Quote:
While your suggestion may be true, it is not what Jesus said.


Which doesn't matter to my point. My point was your inference was invalid, concluding that because Jesus used one word instead of another that it necessarily follows that the word not chosen means something different than the one chosen.

Quote:
But to say that "justified" and "saved" are synonymous enough in this instance to allow a simple replacement is a case of FOTAP.


Why? Look at the case with Zacchaeus. There Christ used the word salvation. Why should it necessarily be the case that the publican was not saved or that Zacchaeus was not justified?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111669
04/12/09 03:58 PM
04/12/09 03:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Arnold, please comment on the following:

Quote:
T:So my point in asking if "justification is salvation" is using "salvation" in precisely the same way you were; that is, I'm taking your definition for "salvation" in your statement that "sanctification is salvation" and asking if "justification is salvation."

A:In my usage, no. One can be fully justified, but not fully experience salvation. A justified person can still be unwittingly doing Satan's will.

T:Can you be more specific please? What do you mean "unwittingly doing Satan's will"? I'm assuming that, by your usage, a sanctified person could not be so classified. That is, a justified person can unwittingly do Satan's will, but not a sanctified person. Would keeping the Sabbath fall in this category? So not person who keeps Sunday could be sanctified?

I'm not arguing anything here; I'm just trying to get a handle on what you mean.


I'm very interested in what you mean by the underlined portion. I started to write something to reply regarding this, but it occurred to me that your words could be taken to mean something different than I had in mind, so I wanted to wait until you clarified what you meant before replying.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111683
04/13/09 02:25 AM
04/13/09 02:25 AM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
So did the thief receive the promise of eternal life without being sanctified?

Fair question, mate. I'll post the full context of an earlier quote.

Quote:
Pardon and justification are one and the same thing [What I quoted earlier]. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption. The sinner receives the forgiveness of his sins, because these sins are borne by his Substitute and Surety. The Lord speaks to His heavenly Father, saying: "This is My child. I reprieve him from the condemnation of death, giving him My life insurance policy--eternal life--because I have taken his place and have suffered for his sins. He is even My beloved son." Thus man, pardoned, and clothed with the beautiful garments of Christ's righteousness, stands faultless before God. . . {RC 74.3}

Justification is the opposite of condemnation. God's boundless mercy is exercised toward those who are wholly undeserving. He forgives transgressions and sins for the sake of Jesus, who has become the propitiation for our sins. Through faith in Christ, the guilty transgressor is brought into favor with God and into the strong hope of life eternal. {RC 74.5}

The theme here, at least to me, appears simple: justification and eternal life (salvation). What am I missing?

BTW, you chaps should really wait for me considering my time limitations. Wouldn't this be classified as Christlikeness? (Reaching far and wide, aren't I?)pray

How do you read Whidden's assertion in light of the thief?

Quote:
What simply needs to be admitted is that this fact is absolutely true—conversion or initial regeneration does not bestow instantaneous sanctification or character sinlessness on the newly minted believer. In fact, such sanctification will only be instantaneously bestowed sometime in the future (and let’s not fuss about whether it is at the close of probation or at glorification at this juncture).

Is it that you subscribe to Wesley's "instantaneous sanctification" or some other form of this teaching? Hate trying to catch up (a near impossible feat!). eek

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111689
04/13/09 03:18 AM
04/13/09 03:18 AM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
I like this definition of eschatological justification, given the day and hour:

Quote:
The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth. For it is the work of every one to whom the message of warning has come, to lift up Jesus, to present Him to the world as revealed in types, as shadowed in symbols, as manifested in the revelations of the prophets, as unveiled in the lessons given to His disciples and in the wonderful miracles wrought for the sons of men. Search the Scriptures; for they are they that testify of Him. If you would stand through the time of trouble, you must know Christ, and appropriate the gift of His righteousness, which He imputes to the repentant sinner. Through Christ, restoration as well as reconciliation is provided for man. 1SM 363-364.

This sounds like the message of Justification By Faith found in Rev. 14 and 18 to me.

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111695
04/13/09 01:01 PM
04/13/09 01:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
You seem to be saying the sinless experience you described above is not possible now. Did I understand you correctly? Do you think only the 144,000 are capable of reaching this kind of sinlessness? If so, what makes it possible for them then but not for us now? What is lacking that prevents us from being like Jesus now?

You asked, "So when I ask you if you are sinless, I'm asking if you never commit a sin." According to 1 John 3:6-9 I do not and cannot commit a sin while I'm abiding in Jesus? Are you also asking if I ever neglect to abide in Jesus and that if I do it is proof I cannot be like Jesus until the day He returns, that only the 144,000 can?

I'm not saying it isn't possible. I do believe it's possible. But I'm saying I don't know anyone who is sinless, beginning with myself. I really don't know what is lacking for us to abide 100% of the time in Jesus. Maybe a special endowement of the Spirit (the latter rain)? Anyway, I consider that reaching this experience is reaching "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" which Ephesians 4:13 speaks about.

If it requires the Latter Rain to reach the point where we can be like Jesus all the time, doesn't that imply it isn't possible without the LR? Also, doesn't Ellen say the LR will be poured out in the future during the Sunday crisis? I realize it began to fall in 1888 but things stopped. It resume will again during Sunday laws.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111702
04/13/09 02:48 PM
04/13/09 02:48 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,569
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
But to say that "justified" and "saved" are synonymous enough in this instance to allow a simple replacement is a case of FOTAP.

Why? Look at the case with Zacchaeus. There Christ used the word salvation. Why should it necessarily be the case that the publican was not saved or that Zacchaeus was not justified?

It is FOTAP because you are assuming that justification=salvation in this instance without proving it. And if you are correct, then that is Evangelical, rather than Adventist teaching. Welcome to the club. wink


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111703
04/13/09 03:08 PM
04/13/09 03:08 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,569
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I'm very interested in what you mean by the underlined portion.

I'll have to come back to this to add details. But the short answer is that I don't subscribe to MM's "morally perfect when you are born again" theory. After being born again, there is still conversion to do.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111707
04/13/09 04:59 PM
04/13/09 04:59 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
It is FOTAP because you are assuming that justification=salvation in this instance without proving it. And if you are correct, then that is Evangelical, rather than Adventist teaching. Welcome to the club.


If memory serves, I didn't assume anything, but asked a question. I asked, "Could Jesus not have just as easily said 'this one went to his house justified." If not, why not? I'm asking you to provide an argument as to why not. I don't think I asserted anything or assumed anything. You said "sanctification *is* salvation" so I'm asking you why, in the same vein, one couldn't say "justification is salvation."

You answered my question by saying that since Jesus didn't use the word "salvation" but "justification" it must follow that He had something else in mind. I don't think this is a valid inference.

Quote:
I'll have to come back to this to add details. But the short answer is that I don't subscribe to MM's "morally perfect when you are born again" theory. After being born again, there is still conversion to do.


I don't subscribe to MM's theory either. However, it appears to me that you're understanding justification differently than I am, so I'm curious to explore this further. However, it may be that it's not a matter of understanding the concept differently, but simply expressing things differently.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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