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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111858
04/16/09 09:09 PM
04/16/09 09:09 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Quote:
tom: We do seem to be speaking past one another.

yes.
Quote:
tom: It seems to me you're thinking Christ wasn't tempted like we are in these matters, that temptation was easy for Him. But it's very likely I'm not understanding you, so perhaps you could clarify.


if you could get past the temptation part and say if you think Jesus liked sin....


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111859
04/16/09 09:47 PM
04/16/09 09:47 PM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
Then babies and children before the age of accountability do not need a savior.

Then I'd simply refer you to this and say something like, I'm quite a jammy-beggar postlapsarian unless you can do better than that. eek

http://www.lastgenerationtheology.org/lgt/doc/1ant/whi-innocent.php

Still tingling,

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111860
04/16/09 10:19 PM
04/16/09 10:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
tom: It seems to me you're thinking Christ wasn't tempted like we are in these matters, that temptation was easy for Him. But it's very likely I'm not understanding you, so perhaps you could clarify.

t:if you could get past the temptation part and say if you think Jesus liked sin.


Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, did not like sin, and His own nature, upon which He took our sinful nature, recoiled from sin. However, the sinful nature which He took, like our sinful nature, did not recoil from sin, and, like our sinful natures, was a source of temptations. Because of His assumed sinful nature, He had a self to be denied. He "pleased not Himself." He did not do "His own will," but the will of His Father.

I originally asked Arnold if he was saying it was easier for Christ to avoid sin than it is for us. This is the context of our current going back and forth. I don't see how, if we assume it was easier for Jesus than it is for us, that the following could be true:

Quote:
As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject.(DA 24)


In addition, if Jesus Christ was not tempted from within, which the SOP calls our most difficult temptations, I don't see how the above could be true either.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111861
04/16/09 10:34 PM
04/16/09 10:34 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I didn't read the quotes except for the bolded part - "innocent children," but it can be clearly seen that some fundamental quotes are missing in that list.

Beginning with the Bible - how many children on the night of the Passover in Egypt were spared without the blood of the lamb?

Going on to EGW:

"I know that some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, 'How can little children have this test and trial?' I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians. {3SM 313.4}

"The word of God came to the Israelites in bondage to gather their children into their houses and to mark the doorposts of their houses with blood from a lamb, slain. This prefigured the slaying of the Son of God and the efficacy of His blood, which was shed for the salvation of the sinner. It was a sign that the household accepted Christ as the promised Redeemer. It was shielded from the destroyer's power. The parents evidenced their faith in implicitly obeying the directions given them, and the faith of the parents covered themselves and their children. They showed their faith in Jesus, the great Sacrifice, whose blood was prefigured in the slain lamb. The destroying angel passed over every house that had this mark upon it. This is a symbol to show that the faith of the parents extends to their children and covers them from the destroying angel." {3SM 314.1}

Why does the faith of the parents need to cover the children if they are "innocent" (not lost, according to the LGT)? Nobody will be saved without the efficacy of Christ's blood, including children.

How then can it be affirmed that we need Christ's blood only after we choose to rebel?


Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111862
04/16/09 11:21 PM
04/16/09 11:21 PM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
Why does the faith of the parents need to cover the children if they are "innocent" (not lost, according to the LGT)?

What do you make of what Ellen White said in the following paragraphs:

Quote:
Christ blessed the children brought to Him by the faithful mothers. He will do this now if mothers will do their duty to their children and teach their children and educate them in obedience and submission. Then they will bear the test and will be obedient to the will of God, for parents stand in the place of God to their children. {3SM 314.3}

Some parents allow Satan to control their children, and their children are not restrained, but are allowed to have wicked tempers, to be passionate, selfish, and disobedient. Should they die these children would not be taken to heaven. The parent's course of action is determining the future welfare of their children. If they allow them to be disobedient and passionate they are allowing Satan to take them in charge and work through them as shall please his satanic majesty, and these children, never educated to obedience and to lovely traits of character, will not be taken to heaven, for the same temper and disposition would be revealed in them. {3SM 314.4}

I said to Brother Matteson, "Whether all the children of unbelieving parents will be saved we cannot tell, because God has not made known His purpose in regard to this matter, and we had better leave it where God has left it and dwell upon subjects made plain in His Word." {3SM 315.1}

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111863
04/16/09 11:55 PM
04/16/09 11:55 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Why does the faith of the parents need to cover the children if they are innocent?


God will take anyone to heaven who would be happy there. Parents have a profound impact on their children's character development.

Quote:
Nobody will be saved without the efficacy of Christ's blood, including children.


That's true. The entire race needed to be benefited by Christ's work.

Quote:
He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.(1SM 343)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111864
04/17/09 12:15 AM
04/17/09 12:15 AM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
"The parents evidenced their faith in implicitly obeying the directions given them, and the faith of the parents covered themselves and their children." {3SM 314.1}

Parents chose to obey and they and their children were sealed by the blood of Lamb.

Nowhere, neither here nor elsewhere, does Ellen White ever suggest that Christ's blood covered these innocent children because of their guilty birth-natures.

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111865
04/17/09 12:30 AM
04/17/09 12:30 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: William
Parents chose to obey and they and their children were sealed by the blood of Lamb.

Nowhere, neither here nor elsewhere, does Ellen White ever suggest that Christ's blood covered these innocent children because of their guilty birth-natures.

Two items:

1) One person's obedience can be credited to another, resulting in being sealed?
2) If the children are innocent, what exactly did Christ's blood cover?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111866
04/17/09 12:37 AM
04/17/09 12:37 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Quote:
Sin is in every fiber of our being by nature. We are born in sin, and our life is sin, so that sin can not be taken from us without taking our life. What I need is freedom from my own personal sin,--that sin which not only has been committed by me personally, but which dwells in the heart,--the sin which constitutes the whole of my life. (The Glad Tidings)

Does this apply to Jesus?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111868
04/17/09 12:46 AM
04/17/09 12:46 AM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
1) One person's obedience can be credited to another, resulting in being sealed?
2) If the children are innocent, what exactly did Christ's blood cover?

1) No. I was reiterating EGW's thought.
2) The obedient faith of their parents according to EGW.

Quote:
"The parents evidenced their faith in implicitly obeying the directions given them, and the faith of the parents covered themselves and their children." {3SM 314.1}

Do you have any concrete evidence from the SOP showing these children were otherwise condemned for being born guilty?

William

Last edited by William; 04/17/09 12:54 AM.

:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
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