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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #113587
05/25/09 05:18 AM
05/25/09 05:18 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Well, I missed the start of this..., but thanks for replying, Rosangela.

Yes, Christ wasn't really under the salvivic covenant of Abraham, since he is Saviour, but since he is the Son of man, he did live under it's terms, since he was born of a woman, born under the law.

Christ's merits are the work of God, but woven in human equipment - character: Jesus had to perform a righteous redemption of this world, with its salvation as the reward for him on completion. That's a contract with his Father, since before our Genesis history. Yes, no scope for falling to temptation, but even that performance used all the gifts of God to us, didn't it?

No renewal of the mind...: true, conceived and born filled with the Holy Spirit, but consider Lk 9:23, which says that following Christ's example involves denying self before taking up the cross of faith in sanctification. Our jusitification is modelled on Christ's daily and calvary death to self and sin, we being renewed after sinning, he learning righteousness without sinning.

Remember what righteousness by faith is, as stated in the Palmdale Conference consensus statement of 1976? "...The experience of justification", that is receiving the mind of Christ (J) and also his life character (S) - one step at a time! Christ operated outside the full support of grace for sinners but also inside its world, else we have no hope of obtaining the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, that is the life of his gospel (2 Thes 2:14). If forged outside of our existence and experience of grace, Christ's gospel righteousness is totally useless to us, failing to meet basic scientific requirements - trial and error under same conditions.

I hope you agree!

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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Colin] #113592
05/25/09 05:57 AM
05/25/09 05:57 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If we don't sin, does that mean our mind does not need to be renewed by the Holy Spirit?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #113596
05/25/09 02:13 PM
05/25/09 02:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Not sinning is not the goal - being like Jesus is! Not sinning is being an unprofitable servant (according to the parables of Jesus). Salvation envision born again believers being like Jesus, growing daily in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. This aspect of salvation has nothing to do with not sinning. Not sinning and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit are not opposites - they are totally unrelated, as unrelated as Jesus and Satan.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #113689
05/27/09 12:14 PM
05/27/09 12:14 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I take it you don't think the following apply to Christ's experience:
a) Grace
b) Having the law written in the heart.

The core of the new covenant is saving grace and heart renewal, with the law written in it. I don't think these apply to Christ.

Quote:
I'm guessing you either don't think Christ overcame by faith, as we do (instead He overcame as unfallen Adam could have), or you don't see any difference in overcoming by faith for unfallen Adam and ourselves.

Of course Christ overcame by faith. What exactly is the difference you see between unfallen Adam and us in this respect?

Quote:
In short, you seem to see Christ's experience as very different from ours. The only similarities would be that Christ had a physical body somewhat like ours (in that it could become tired, for example) and He could be tempted from some external source, such as Satan or an agent of his (like Adam, before his fall).

What I believe is that Christ, differently from us, couldn't be tempted by the evil of His own heart.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Rosangela] #113691
05/27/09 12:37 PM
05/27/09 12:37 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
An interesting passage I came upon about atonement for sins of ignorance:

The minds of all who embrace this message are directed to the Most Holy place where Jesus stands before the ark, making his final intercession for all those for whom mercy still lingers, and for those who have ignorantly broken the law of God. This atonement is made for the righteous dead as well as for the righteous living. Jesus makes an atonement for those who died, not receiving the light upon God's commandments, who sinned ignorantly.' Spiritual Gifts. Volume 1, p. 162.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Colin] #113692
05/27/09 12:59 PM
05/27/09 12:59 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Yes, Christ wasn't really under the salvivic covenant of Abraham, since he is Saviour, but since he is the Son of man, he did live under it's terms, since he was born of a woman, born under the law.

Colin, as I see it, Christ is Saviour as both God and man. And Adam was also born under the law, but the pre-fall covenant wasn't a covenant of grace.

Quote:
Christ's merits are the work of God, but woven in human equipment - character: Jesus had to perform a righteous redemption of this world, with its salvation as the reward for him on completion. That's a contract with his Father, since before our Genesis history. Yes, no scope for falling to temptation, but even that performance used all the gifts of God to us, didn't it?

Christ had to pass the test Adam failed to pass in order to obtain eternal life - overcoming Satan. If Adam had done that, he would have obtained eternal life for himself and his posterity. If not, he would have died. The same is true about Christ. So, the covenant is the same for both. In order to overcome Satan, Adam had to be a partaker of the divine nature. The same is true about Christ. What is the difference, in terms of covenant, you see between Adam and Christ?


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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Rosangela] #113694
05/27/09 01:15 PM
05/27/09 01:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:I take it you don't think the following apply to Christ's experience:
a) Grace
b) Having the law written in the heart.

R:The core of the new covenant is saving grace and heart renewal, with the law written in it. I don't think these apply to Christ.


Ok, so you agreed with my characterization of your thought.

Quote:
T:I'm guessing you either don't think Christ overcame by faith, as we do (instead He overcame as unfallen Adam could have), or you don't see any difference in overcoming by faith for unfallen Adam and ourselves.

R:Of course Christ overcame by faith. What exactly is the difference you see between unfallen Adam and us in this respect?


Ok, so you agreed again with my characterization of your thought. There are many differences regarding Adam and us in this respect. To mention just two, heart renewal and grace.

Quote:
T:In short, you seem to see Christ's experience as very different from ours. The only similarities would be that Christ had a physical body somewhat like ours (in that it could become tired, for example) and He could be tempted from some external source, such as Satan or an agent of his (like Adam, before his fall).

R:What I believe is that Christ, differently from us, couldn't be tempted by the evil of His own heart.


Do you disagree in any way with my characterization of your thought? If you agree, you can just say so. If you disagree, please point out some are of disagreement. Do you believe Christ could be tempted in any way other than by an external source, such as Satan or an agent of his?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #113695
05/27/09 02:14 PM
05/27/09 02:14 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding the meaning of "under the law," something from Waggoner:

Quote:
1. Concerning the meaning of the term, “under the law,” you say that you have shown that “it does not always mean under the condemnation of the law, but rather under the authority of the law, or under obligation to keep the law.” I have carefully reread all previous references to it, and while I find several assertions to that effect, I find not one item of proof.

To be sure you quote from Greenfield, but I don’t consider his assertion as of any more value than that of any other man. I cannot take the space here to quote all the occurrences of the term, “under the law,” and show its meaning; but I wish to make this point: In Romans 6:14, 15, and Galatians 5:18, the expression occurs, and there cannot be the slightest doubt but that it means “condemned by the law.” You would not dare give it the meaning, “subject to the law,” in those places. There can be no controversy concerning its use in those texts.

Now it is a fixed principle in biblical interpretation that controverted texts must be settled by appeal to texts which are uncontroverted. Moreover, consistency requires that any term should have the same meaning wherever it occurs in the Bible, unless the context shows beyond question that it must have a different meaning.

Now there is no place in the Bible where it does not make good sense to interpret “under the law” as “condemned by the law.” But in the texts which I have just referred to, it cannot possibly mean “subject to the law.” If the limits of this review would warrant it, I would show by positive evidence from Scripture, and not by quotations from commentaries; that “under the law” invariably means “condemned by the law,” and that it cannot by any possibility mean anything else. Of course I except the two places, 1 Corinthians 9:21 and Romans 3:19, where it is not found in the original.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #113697
05/27/09 04:42 PM
05/27/09 04:42 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Regarding the meaning of "under the law," something from Ellen White:

Christ acknowledged Himself subject to the law. If this were not so, He could not be our Saviour, and take away our sin. {12MR 233.4}

In coming to the world in human form, in becoming subject to the law, in revealing to men that He bore their sickness, their sorrow, their guilt, Christ did not become a sinner. He was pure and uncontaminated by any disease. Not one stain of sin was found upon Him. {TMK 67.5}

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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #113698
05/27/09 04:48 PM
05/27/09 04:48 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
T:I take it you don't think the following apply to Christ's experience:
a) Grace
b) Having the law written in the heart.

R:The core of the new covenant is saving grace and heart renewal, with the law written in it. I don't think these apply to Christ.

T: Ok, so you agreed with my characterization of your thought.

Yes, and what is your thought? That Christ needed his heart to be renewed and the law to be written in it, like us? Or that He was born with a holy heart and with the law written in it, like Adam?

Quote:
T:In short, you seem to see Christ's experience as very different from ours. The only similarities would be that Christ had a physical body somewhat like ours (in that it could become tired, for example) and He could be tempted from some external source, such as Satan or an agent of his (like Adam, before his fall).

R:What I believe is that Christ, differently from us, couldn't be tempted by the evil of His own heart.

T: Do you disagree in any way with my characterization of your thought? If you agree, you can just say so. If you disagree, please point out some are of disagreement. Do you believe Christ could be tempted in any way other than by an external source, such as Satan or an agent of his?

I don't believe Christ could be tempted by any evil within himself. So, He could only be tempted by Satan or one of his agents.

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