Very true -- the Bible does say that people will kill thinking they are doing God's will.

I guess I was thinking more of the cultural "please everyone" be nice, don't step on any toes, but not really living with Christ type of person, who will be swept away in the final deceptions.

Paul speaks of the christian living led by the Spirit, with listing the fruits of the Spirit. These can be summed up in the great commandment, Love God and love everyone else, and those who live this way break not Gods laws.

More specifically, you wrote: "So what takes precedence, that is the question --
LOVE or God's Commands?

If we place love first -- we place our own emotional feelings above God's law.

If we place God's commands first we will love, for His law is based on love, but it is NOT based on our own feelings."

If you consider that God's commands are summed up in the great command on Love of God and all other men, asking on precedence is itself a straw man.

I think it can be rather easily shown that love (agape) is the opposite of sin. Just from general principles, agape is self-sacrificing love. The essence of sin, otoh, is selfishness. So here we see the contrast. On the one hand, you have the giving of self for the good of others, while on the other you have taking from others for the good of self.

From Scripture, the writings of John, in particular, bring out this concept. For example, from 1 John 3:



This is just a small portion, but if one reads the whole chapter (or, better yet, the whole letter), it is clear that John contrasts love (agape) with sin the whole way through.



What does righteousness include besides righteous love? Isn't righteous love simply another way of saying agape? If righteousness consists of righteous love, and righteousness is the opposite of sin, then righteous love is the opposite of sin, which is simply another way of saying that agape is the opposite of sin.

Another way of seeing this is the case is simply from the fact that love is the fulfilling of the law. What's the opposite of fulfilling the law? It's sin.

This is an interesting thought. As I've thought about this, I doubt this is true. John contrasts the one who hates his brother with the one who walks in the light. Walking in the light is put together with loving one's brother, and having eternal life. (See 1 John 2). On the other hand, one who hates his brother does not have eternal life, and walks in darkness. So it seems that loving one's brother/hating one's brother is a valid dividing line between those who are lost and those who aren't.

Jesus made clear in the Sermon on the Mount the relationship between hating and murder. It seems to me that unless one is born again, it is inevitable that one will hate one's brother. This happens when one's brother crosses self. By nature, we can't stand anything that gets in the way of the desires of self, and so we hate anyone who does that. It takes the love of God in the heart, in short, being born again, to change this. We cannot love (agape) without being born again. If we don't love our brother, we will hate him, which is tantamount to murder.

using him as an example since we both know him, but at the same time not telling you anything you dont already know, he is the perfect example of "killing". we dont have to literally, physically kill someone to "kill" them. its interesting that there is the term, "assassinating ones character". coming up with any and every kind of accusation to beat down ones opponent, or "kill" their influence.

but he isnt the only one, maybe he and those like him are the most obvious, but we all do it. it is a real struggle to stay in prayer and try to make sure we are dealing with what is actually said/meant. to not try to cut the other person down when we seem to be losing the "war".

what i have seen on these forums just amazes me and by a people who would defend the "law" and the IJ to the death. but that by no means implies that i am faultless myself. many times i have had to apologize, had to go back and make amends myself.


yes, and if i may gently point out, if you go back and read the posts the love we were stressing was the "hard" one. the one that has to humble down and admit when it is wrong, that has to make amends, the one that has to constantly search its self in surrender to God to see how one is behaving, how they are treating their fellowman.

someone else could probably do a better job with what i am trying to say.

It looks like our paradigms are pretty different, as I'll try to show below.


I don't view "love" as just a concept. Your view of "love" seems to be the wishy-washy emotion that is often sung about on the radio. You reject that "love" and rightly so, but that is not the "love" we find in the Bible. 1Cor 13 gives us a peek at true love. 1Jn, especially chapter 4, spells is out pretty clearly.


Here's another difference. You see "love" as one of the many attributes of God. I see "love" as the defining characteristic of God, and those attributes you listed are the different facets and manifestations of love. Love is not just one of the list, it is the aggregate of the list.

John didn't say God HAS love; he said God IS love. That does not downgrade God; it uplifts love.

On these hang the law and the prophets. Against such there is no law.

Be careful. You might pop up in a vision or dream one of these days.

im addressed somewhere on his site with my "errors", does that count? i understand it bears little resemblance to what i actually said, tho. but then im in good company. once he gets done with the bible/sop they also bear little resemblance to what theyve said.