I don't want to "just explain" it.

I want to see it from scripture.
Did you study Romans 6:3-11?

Don't you believe it is Christ's blood and sacrifice that reconciles us to God?

The wages of sin is death...

When Adam sinned he sold the whole human race into the hands of satan, sin and death.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


The law -- God's moral law -- demands the death of the transgressor.
Without the shed blood of Christ, the law is only an instrument declaring that we deserve death, for we have transgressed that law.

Jesus' blood is the central theme of the entire Word of God, from the blood of Abel's slain lamb to the blood of the Lamb (Jesus) in Revelation 7:14. Hebrews 9:22 declares that there is NO remission of sins without the shedding of Christ's blood. The blood of Jesus is the ONLY way for our sins to be forgiven...

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" —Colossians 1:14

...and for us to have access to the Father's throne.

Heb. 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holies by the blood of Jesus,


It was only because the plan of the SUBSTITUTIONAL SACRIFICIAL DEATH by Christ Who stood as surety for mankind, that Adam and Eve continued to live after their sin.

To teach them, God, instituted the scarificial system immediately.

You will notice in Genesis, that the robe of light departed and they realized they were naked.

Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Sin robbed them of the cloak of innocence, and they tried to make coverings out of leaves. They tried to make themselves presentable, but it didn't work.

God comes to search for them. God promises a Redeemer Gen. 3:16

Then " Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Coats of skin-- can only be made when an animal dies.
This is significent. The clues are all in that God promised the coming of the Redeemer, then the very first sacrifice was made, the Lambs, depicting the death of Christ, and the skins of the animals was made into clothes -- God clothed them with the skins.
A robe of righteousness to cover their nakedness.

The symbolism is powerful. Sin-- leaves one naked of righteousness. This can be remedied only by the death of the substititude, Who then clothes us with His own robe of righteousness.

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law.



It changed our status--
Without the sacrifice of Christ, we are not members of God's kingdom, but members of satan's kingdom, enslaved there till death causes us to perish forever.


Ephesians 2:2-5 tells the same thing as Romans 6:2-9

2:2 Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)
2:6 And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


We have to unite ourselves WITH Christ in His death.
Christ took OUR SINS and our sinful nature upon His sinless nature and DIED. And we are RAISED WITH HIM, to fellowship with Him in heavenly places.

Do we now accept, and count our old natures DEAD?
Do we now accept Christ's robe of righteousness?
Do we now believe we are citizens of Gods' kingdom?

If we consider the old nature DEAD, do we continue to feed it? NO! it's dead
If we accept Christ's robe of righteousness and realize we are accepted in the beloved, how do we respond?




You added a word.

Read on -- I also wrote:
"When we accept Christ and join Him in baptism, we die inwardly to this sinful kingdom. Yet that death depends entirely on Christ's sacrificial death upon the cross as Christ takes upon Himself our "old man of sin" and it is nailed on the cross with Him.

Our connection to Christ and His sacrifice is so real that it carries "our old man" to the very cross of Christ in a spiritual crucifixion that kills our old selfish self and we are BORN AGAIN, raised to newness of life WITH CHRIST!

"Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sins of the world."
This is Jesus the Son of God, Who shared the glory and power of supreme glory with the Father He is the Creator of the universe, standing there "a lamb as when it is slain" He is the sacrifice.
"Come," Jesus calls, "Place your hands upon my head and confess your sins." Trembling we place our hands on the head of Him who has never cherished an evil thought, and confess all our dark imaginings, we look in the face that has only love and goodness, and confess all our hate and evil. We acknowledge specific sins and shortcomings, knowing that He has never sinned. And as our attention is drawn to the cross to see what our sins did to Jesus, something happens inside. All our pride and selfishness is stripped bare, and we ask, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice?"

Suddenly the horror of sin is revealed to us. Those little sins that we thought we had a right to hang on to don't look so innocent anymore, and we experience what is know as repentance. Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. True repentance does not happen apart from Christ and the cross. We may experience regret for the consequences of sin, we may even change our lifestyle, but only as we contemplate the cross and allow our old nature to DIE WITH CHRIST, can we experience true repentance, which is so necessary to the Christian life.
As we see what our sins did to Jesus and how He took our punishment because He loved us, we will have a change of heart and mind. Gladly we surrender all our cherished idols--everything that stands between us and Christ we place on the alter and even more, we give ourselves to Jesus by the mercies of God, we present our bodies a living sacrifice, holy , acceptable unto God. (Romans 12:2)

Great emphasis! Wonderful truth and food for our tired and starving souls. It made me think how the "daily" sacrifice was the foundation and made acceptable all other sacrifices.


Yes, this is quite essential. May I add that the "Born Again" (also referred in the Bible as the indwelling spirit or the mystery of God) is how we abide in Christ and He in us. This is how we become victorious daily.

The righteousness of Christ given to us as a free gift draws us to the cross and to receive the grace. Without it, we couldn't gone to the cross.

Like you said, it is the seed of rebellion that is the root of sin. These seeds needs to be plucked out of our heart and only Christ can do this work. Our part is to come to him daily and confess His great Love and Grace and our need of him. Then 1 Jn 4:15 happens in our heart "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. "

When Jesus is dwells in our heart then "For it is God which worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of [his] good pleasure." Phil 2:13 This is only possible through the true confession of faith -- DAILY.

Tom, as I recall, you don't interpret shed blood and forgiveness in Heb 9:22 and Eph 2:14 as a legal connection, but as relationship restored: the love of God displayed in Christ's death reconciles us to God since we believe he is love, and did not do so before. There is no legal requirement of shed blood for forgiveness for us - just the love to be believed in?

Am still not crystal clear on your reasoning on shed blood and forgiveness, but am clear that clarifying the character of God in our minds and those of the rest of the world is paramount for you. How do you think Christ's death and shed blood change us, and what legal element is there in that?

Dedication, I like your Bible study. It's got pretty much the full detail. It's the "old man" indeed of the sinful mind that Christ put to death in his body on the tree: that's how his death substituted for ours - we acknowledge it by baptism, but by grace when "one died for all, then were all dead".

Why did it change our status? If this change is something which has nothing to do with us, it would impact every human being equally, wouldn't it? Are you saying that it changed the status of everyone, making everyone a member of God's kingdom, and taking everyone away from Satan's kingdom?



So this is something we do. I think I may be agreeing with what you're trying to say, it's just the manner in which you're saying it that I'm having a little trouble in following (for example, asserting that dying to sin is not something we do).

Let's see if you agree with the following. The cross of Christ reveals the love of God, and in so doing, reveals to us our own inadequacies and need for God's love, grace and forgiveness. When we respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, who fixes our attention on Christ, this results in our being brought into harmony with God, which is to say, reconciled.

Do you agree?

Here's something Waggoner had to say about this question:



I don't agree with the idea that there is no legal requirement; I just don't think that the legal requirement is along the lines that Anselm or Calvin conceived of it (although I agree with how Waggoner conceived of it).



I don't think this is just "for me." For example:



This says that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission on earth (which must surely include His death) was to set men right through the revelation of God. "Whole purpose" sounds like something paramount, doesn't it?



I think I'll quote Fifield here. This is a good and important question.



Another quote:



The cross changes us by revealing the height and depth of God's love. By beholding His character man can be drawn back to God.

Regarding the legal requirement, I agree with Fifield. I think it's a mistake to view the legal requirement as something arbitrary that God requires as opposed to a description of reality (Waggoner also expressed this idea).

Basically I think a proper understanding of the whole issue is easily obtained if we ask the question as to what the problem is that needs to be solved. From "The Desire of Ages":



If we accept the proposition that sin is lethal, destroying its victims by instilling false ideas regarding God's character, leading one to form a character incapable of being in the life-giving presence of God, then we can perceive God's character and actions as One who is doing everything possible to save us from the life-taking properties of sin. Since sin achieves its power chiefly by the misrepresentation of God's character, the solution must be the revelation of God's character.

Expressing things in terms of a legal requirement is simply another of expressing the same truth in other words. For example, "the law requires perfect obedience" simply means that our thoughts and behavior must be in harmony with God's character if we wish to live; not because God will do something to us if we don't, but because the principles of sin are not possible of sustaining life.

Indeed, once we come to the cross and see in Christ's death, the death of our "old nature" which He took upon Himself and died in our place: as we through Christ, die to the old nature and count it as dead, we, with Christ rise to newness of life.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.