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Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: teresaq] #113867
05/30/09 11:09 PM
05/30/09 11:09 PM
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Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
Originally Posted By: Colin
This sounds, Teresa,...
Originally Posted By: teresaq
Quote:
There's a world of difference between shutting out evil thoughts from our mind because we know God has cleansed us and such thoughts have no business in a cleansed mind, then to fight with evil thoughts in the disparing battle of trying to "kill the old man".


i see "dying to self" more along these lines:

In his great love, Christ surrendered himself for us. He gave himself for us to meet the necessities of the striving, struggling soul. We are to surrender ourselves to him. When this surrender is entire, Christ can finish the work he began for us by the surrender of himself. Then he can bring to us complete restoration. {RH, May 30, 1907 par. 4}

Unless men possess the love of Christ, the qualifications that otherwise would be of value in God's work will be controlled by the natural selfishness of the human heart. Christ desires every man's character to be a harmonious whole. If it is not this, deformity exists. God and man must cooperate to make the character beautiful and symmetrical. {18MR 205.2}
Self must be wholly surrendered to Christ. "Ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." You are to surrender your ownership of self to God's ownership. {18MR 205.3}
Sanctification is a progressive work. It is a continuous work, leading human beings higher and still higher. It brings perfection. It does not leave love behind, but brings it constantly into the life as the very essence of Christlikeness. {18MR 205.4}


MR No. 1552 - A Solemn Appeal to Surrender to Christ

(Written March 3, 1858, from Green Springs, Ohio, to Mary Loughborough.)

We are now at Brother Sharp's. They have recently embraced the truth. Seem to be first-rate people. We have suffered in mind considerably since we have been here. I have felt deep agony of soul. I have looked back at a few past months, and as I realize how little I have imitated Jesus' self-sacrificing, devoted life, I am led almost to despair. As I examine the life of our Saviour, the great sacrifice He has made for us, and then be led through His sufferings and anguish, my heart melts within me. Oh, what suffering and agony [He] endured to save lost and fallen man! And this salvation is extended to us freely if we will accept it, if we will suffer with Christ, denying ourselves for His sake. {21MR 252.1}
Dear Mary, last Monday I was shown in vision some things that bear with weight upon my mind. I was led through the life of Christ to see His meek, self-denying life. This great sacrifice was to obtain for us a great salvation. And if we obtain this great salvation it must be by our making a sacrifice on our part. As Jesus sacrificed for us, we must sacrifice for Jesus. As He denied Himself for us, we must deny ourselves for Jesus. As he endured privation and suffering for us, so we must endure privation and suffering for Jesus. As He was tempted of Satan, as He was buffeted by Satan forty days then left for a season and angels ministered unto Him, so we shall be buffeted by Satan for a season; and if we resist him these seasons will be followed by grace and strength from God imparted unto us by His angels. {21MR 252.2}
As Jesus endured agony and often was in lonely prayer and in agony of spirit pleading with His Father, so we, if we are truly Christ's followers, will often feel agony of soul, and will pour out our earnest prayer to our Father. We shall groan in spirit after God. But these seasons when the soul is enshrouded in darkness will not drive the true Christian from God. I was shown that the disciples of Christ, without an exception, are not their own. Jesus has bought them with a dear sacrifice, His own blood. He claims them. Their time, their strength, are His. Their will, their mind, are subject to His will. Their will is yielded, given up. They wait and watch for the will and counsel of God to be manifested concerning them. {21MR 252.3}
I saw that the will is either submitted to Jesus for Him to govern and lead, or the person retains or sets up his or her own will, not willing to submit to Jesus against his own peculiar desires or will. Then Satan steps in and he molds this will to his own pleasure. {21MR 252.4}
Christ or Satan has the government of the will, and we are the subjects of one or the other. I was pointed to Christ. Although He was tempted of the devil forty days, yet His will was submitted to the will of His Father and He yielded not, although He was tempted stronger in every way by Satan than any of His disciples have ever been tempted. His will was not yielded to the will of the enemy for a moment. {21MR 253.1}

To have the religion of Christ means that you have absolutely surrendered your all to God, and consented to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Through the gift of the Holy Spirit moral power will be given you, and not only will you have your former intrusted talents for the service of God, but their efficiency will be greatly multiplied. The surrender of all our powers to God greatly simplifies the problem of life. It weakens and cuts short a thousand struggles with the passions of the natural heart. Religion is as a golden cord that binds the souls of both youth and aged to Christ. Through it the willing and obedient are brought safely through dark and intricate paths to the city of God. {MYP 30.2}


...like you agree, with your own wording: Dedication is saying we submit to God's cleansing action when faced with evil thoughts, which is what these EGW quotes say, too, not so?


no, my brother. i see "works" in both instances of the way dedication stated it. maybe that wasnt how she meant it.

but in the way ellen white states it, in her various ways, i see a "Power outside of ourselves" keeping us when and if we surrender fully to God.. i see surrendering to God as dying to self. that is the battle.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


Yes, is sanctification - another element of Dedication's thread, on my behalf! - all God's work in us or do we work with God on it? I know that justification is all God's work in us, but sanctification must essentially involve us choosing to allow God to change us, and selecting what to change in us..., not so?

Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: Elle] #113868
05/30/09 11:13 PM
05/30/09 11:13 PM
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Colin  Offline
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Teresa, I see what Dedication is bringing here. That's an important emphasis that got me thinking all week.

Thanks Dedication for sharing this emphasis "that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." That hit hard with me and gaved a deeper meaning to my connection with Christ. I find this quite profound to what level Christ already took all my sin, and nailed it to the cross.

Frankly, I would like to hear some more and how it correlates with the DOA.


YES, Elle, the essence of renewal is that "our old man is crucified with Christ" before we are born again, else we are not dead to sin and in a position to be born again, daily. This truth of the cross of Christ isn't mentioned much today...

Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: teresaq] #113869
05/30/09 11:21 PM
05/30/09 11:21 PM
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Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Your point about God's power working in us, and the issue of "works" you made..., brings a different, related, question to mind. smile

You're a "diehard" supporter of the IJ: SO AM I! Amen! How do you see us at all participating in that judgement with Jesus? Do we work with him, do we let him, alone, work on us, do we have a time limit? I like Herb Douglass book "Why Jesus Waits", on this issue, but how do you understanding it?

I ask also because "works" have their place when we obey God, don't they - so they are then not self-righteousness, not so? Sanctification has us being very busy changing into Christlikeness, doesn't it, but it turns on whether we're using God's power to do so and not our own best efforts, right?

Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: Colin] #113871
05/30/09 11:25 PM
05/30/09 11:25 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
Your point about God's power working in us, and the issue of "works" you made..., brings a different, related, question to mind. smile

You're a "diehard" supporter of the IJ: SO AM I! Amen! How do you see us at all participating in that judgement with Jesus? Do we work with him, do we let him, alone, work on us, do we have a time limit? I like Herb Douglass book "Why Jesus Waits", on this issue, but how do you understanding it?

I ask also because "works" have their place when we obey God, don't they - so they are then not self-righteousness, not so? Sanctification has us being very busy changing into Christlikeness, doesn't it, but it turns on whether we're using God's power to do so and not our own best efforts, right?


perhaps a thread should be started on that so we dont hijack this one? smile


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: teresaq] #113872
05/30/09 11:35 PM
05/30/09 11:35 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Now the "moral influence theory" is a broad term, and not all who follow its premise believe everything the same on all points. Thus anyone can find a point and say they "disagree" while in reality still following the basic premise.

What is the "moral influence theory"?

The bottom line of the "moral influence theory" is the denial of the Substitutional death and life of Christ.


No it's not. You are once again just asserting things without producing any evidence for your statements.

Quote:
It's main thought is that Jesus' death had nothing to do with the proper demands of a righteous God for judgements on sin.


Where's the evidence for this assertion?

Quote:
Though they will use Biblical phrases such as "justified by His blood for the forgiveness of sins" they take away the obvious meaning and interpret it in a human subjective manner that the cross moves us to respond to God's love and move away from sin.


"Obvious meaning" means "as I see things" I guess? Where is there any evidence to support your assertion here?

Quote:
In a sense this makes our response the ground of justification and the grounds for "forgiveness" ALONE. The covering of sin by the blood of Christ is not necessary.


Why do you think this? Where's the evidence for what you are asserting?

Quote:
The "atonement" is not equated with the "atoning sacrifice" as in the sacrificial system. (i.e. the sinner confessing his sins upon the head of the victim and then taking its life, symbolic of it absorbing the penalty of the sins so the sinner can go home justified)


Where's the evidence for this assertion?

Quote:
but is limited to only the human response once again of setting aside his misinformed hostility toward God and being on friendly more submissive terms with God. Reconciliation is limited to mankind having a change of mind.


Where's the evidence for this assertion?

Quote:
"Moral influence denies that Jesus sacrifice was substitutionary, necessitated by God's holy wrath against evil." It places the legal atonement in opposition to a knowledgable relationship with God, when in fact both are essential.


Where's the evidence for this assertion? Is the "legal atonement" something that happens to the individual when he believes, or is it a corporate justification?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: teresaq] #113874
05/30/09 11:38 PM
05/30/09 11:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Yes, Tom VERY EXASPERATING.

Very exasperating indeed.

If it's not true then what in the world are you arguing about and posting long long posts about?


Why don't you read them and see? If you have any questions about something, why don't you do what I'm asking, and quote something I said, and we could discuss it? Until you do so, there's not much I can do except deny I said what you're claiming.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: teresaq] #113876
05/30/09 11:41 PM
05/30/09 11:41 PM
Tom  Offline
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14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
You are denying the SUBSITUTIONAL DEATH OF CHRIST as NECESSARY for our death to sin and resurrection to newness of life.
You are denying the that this death was NECESSARY in the reckoning of heaven's justice to forgive sins and restore mankind into justice.


If "you" is me, this would be clearer if you said "Tom" somewhere. Why do you think this, ded? Is there some reason you refuse to quote something I've said? Is there any way that you might be persuaded to do so?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: teresaq] #113877
05/31/09 12:04 AM
05/31/09 12:04 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Now, your difficulty is understanding how Dedication says that we experience death to sin, or just the very words, in isolation "dying to sin is not something we do"...?


She already addressed this Colin. She said something, and I asked a question about it. She explained her meaning, and I asked for further clarification. She explained further, and that was the end of it, except for you (and perhaps some extent she) thinking that I was attacking her, or attacking the fundamental beliefs of the church or Christianity, or I don't know what all.

I asked a question (this is not an attack!), and then made a comment (also not an attack) which could have been avoided, in my opinion, by her having been more accurate in her writing. That's my opinion. Perhaps I was at fault for not reading her better. What does it matter? I asked a question, she answered. I made a comment, and she responded. This is just normal discussion. I don't understand what you're making a bit deal about, and really don't understand where these baseless accusations about me "trashing" the teachings of the church come from, nor the idea that I'm denying Christ's death to sin for us. I made no comment on that.

What I asked about was this comment:

Quote:
it means because HE died to our sin, we died to sin. Therefore it is apparent that our dying to sin is not something we do, but something Christ has done...


So I asked her about this, and made a comment, and that's all I said about this.

Quote:
I'm not going to go into your addition of "need" to her statement in quoting her. We can handle that separately, as it appears you do not yet see the whole sale change it makes to her statement.


You're right. I don't see much difference between "dying to sin is not something we do" and "dying to sin is not something we need to do." I certainly don't see how one could think this changes completely her whole point. If it's not something we do,(what she said) it's certainly not something we need to do(my restatement, with the word "need to" inserted).

Anyway, I already commented on this. If you wish to discuss this further, please go back to my previous comment, quote it, and then make your comments.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: Tom] #113878
05/31/09 12:08 AM
05/31/09 12:08 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
here is a site that has the different atonement theories. how accurate it is i dont know, but it might give us an idea what they are and help us get on the same page and know what each other is talking about.

http://newprotestants.com/ATONHIST1.htm
two of them below:

Satisfaction Theory 1100

This theory was first produced in a clear coherent manner by Anselm in his treatise, Cur Deus Homo, which translated means Why a Godman? Anselm finds no reason in justice why God was under any obligation to Satan. Anselm maintains that Christ’s Atonement concerns God and not the devil. Man by his sin has violated the honor of God and defiled His handiwork. It is not consistent with the Divine self-respect that He should permit His purpose to be thwarted. Yet this purpose requires the fulfillment by man of the perfect law of God, which by sin man has transgressed. For this transgression, repentance is no remedy. Since penitence, however sincere, cannot atone for the guilt of past sin. Nor can any finite substitute, whether man or angel make reparation. Sin being against the infinite God, is infinitely guilty, and can be atoned for only by an infinite satisfaction. Thus either man must be punished and God’s purpose fail or else man must make an infinite satisfaction, which is impossible. There is only one way of escape, and that is that someone should be found who can unite in his own person the attributes both of humanity and of infinity. This is brought about by the incarnation of Christ. In Christ we have one who is very man, and can therefore make satisfaction to God on behalf of humanity, but who is at the same time very God, and whose person therefore gives infinite worth to the satisfaction which He makes. Christ death which is voluntarily given when it is not due since He was without sin, is the infinite satisfaction which secures the salvation of man.

Substitution Theory 1500’s (AKA Penal Theory)

The Protestant view held many of Anselm's presuppositions regarding Christ’s Atonement. However it was modified in one very substantial way. The central position of the Atonement was interpreted not as satisfaction, but as punishment, and hence given a substitutionary significance. The infinite guilt of man’s sin which has so utterly alienated mankind from the Kingdom of Heaven that none but a person reaching to God can be the medium of restoring peace. Such an efficient mediator is found in Christ alone. Through whose atoning death the price of man’s forgiveness is paid and a way of salvation made open. Calvin considers the Atonement not as a meritorious satisfaction accepted as a substitute for punishment, but as the vicarious endurance by Christ of that punishment itself. Calvin denies that God was ever hostile to Christ or angry with Him, yet in His Divine providence He suffered His Son to go through the experience of those against whom God is thus hostile. In His own consciousness, Christ bore the weight of the Divine anger, was smitten and afflicted, and experienced all the signs of an angry and avenging God.

The Penal Theory was severally criticized by the Socinians, who attacked the entire concept of substitutionary punishment. They held that punishment and forgiveness are inconsistent ideas. If a man is punished he cannot be forgiven, and vice versa. Under the theory of distributive justice, punishment, being a matter of the relation between individual guilt and its consequences, is strictly untransferable. The Socinians held to the Moral Influence Theory as mentioned by the Apostolic Fathers and the Apologists of the second century church.




Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Justifiction, sanctification and the Grace of God [Re: teresaq] #113880
05/31/09 12:25 AM
05/31/09 12:25 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
D:Justification includes forgiveness but goes beyond it.

T:I think justification and forgiveness are one and the same thing.

(EGW)Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. (6 SDABC 1070)

T:Unless you wish to argue that "pardon" is not the same thing as "forgiveness," the above quote establishes my point.

D:But Ellen White includes the greater part I was referring to, thus Justification is more than forgiveness:

"To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, and heart, and soul. The apostle says, "And we have the mind of Christ."


Ok, so you're saying (or would agree) with the following?:

a.Justification and pardon are one and the same.
b.Pardon is more than forgiveness.
c.Therefore justification is more than forgiveness.

Quote:
Covered by what?

What is it that covers those sins?

It is Christ's blood.


Which means what?

Quote:

Now, please don't go extremely literalistic, no, Christ does not have "a pot of His blood" as you mentioned earlier when countering me. But it is still the blood of Christ that is necessary to cover those sins.


Which means what?

Quote:
It is with His blood that Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary in order to "cover" our sins.


Which means what? You just keep repeating a phrase which you admit should not be taken literally, without explaining what you mean by the phrase. That doesn't communicate anything.

Quote:
You quote
Waggoner "Christ and His Righteousness"

Waggoner does not take away the legal aspect in that quote --
For him it is not an either/or
but a fuller understanding.

The legal aspect is very much there,
and it leads into the fuller understanding.

He is saying what I've been trying to say --
It is Christ's death that clears us from sin.
Christ Who covers us with His robe of righteousness.
"It is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual"

"It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change."


I've said all along that I agree with what Waggoner wrote. So if you are in agreement with him, then we're all in agreement.

The specific idea that I disagree with is the idea that the inability to pardon sin is on God's part, and that God's inability to do this is fixed by Christ's death. I see that that Christ's death is the necessity for Christ's death is 100% on our account, and 0% on God's account. If you can find something in Waggoner's writings which disagrees with this concept, I'd certainly like to see it, because I've never read anything where he presents an idea like this.

To me, everything falls logically from the premise that death is the result of sin. Once we accept this premise, then we see that God as doing all that He can to rescue us from sin, and reconcile us to Himself, where we are safe.

On the other hand, if we see death as an arbitrary punishment, a not the direct result of sin, then penal substitution makes sense. Everything I've read in Waggoner indicates that he saw things as I do, that death is the result of sin, and that Christ saves us by rescuing us from sin. Again, I'm not aware of a single statement of Waggoner's communicating the idea that God needed the sacrifice of Christ in order to be able to pardon. He said the following:

Quote:
A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.(Waggoner on Romans)


It seems obvious to me that Waggoner here is agreeing with my point of view here (or, I should say, I'm agreeing with his.)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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