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Christus Victor #113707
05/27/09 07:31 PM
05/27/09 07:31 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The “Christus Victor” View of the Atonement

God accomplished many things by having his Son become incarnate and die on Calvary. Through Christ God revealed the definitive truth about himself (Rom 5:8, cf. Jn 14:7-10); reconciled all things, including humans, to himself (2 Cor 5:18-19; Col 1:20-22), forgave us our sins (Ac 13:38; Eph 1:7); healed us from our sin-diseased nature (1 Pet 2:24); poured his Spirit upon us and empowered us to live in relation to himself (Rom 8:2-16 ); and gave us an example of what it looks like when we live in the kingdom (Eph 5:1-2; 1 Pet 2:21). Yet, I believe all these facets of Christ’s work can be understand as aspects of the most fundamental thing Christ came to accomplish: namely, to defeat the devil and his minions (Heb 2:14; 1 Jn 3:8). He came to overcome evil with love.
This is known as the Christus Victor (Latin for “Christ is victorious”) view of the atonement. In this essay I will spell out why I believe it expresses the biblical view of Christ and why I think this is important.

Hostile Waters, Monsters and Gods

The Christus Victor view of the atonement cannot be understood without an appreciation for the broader spiritual warfare motif that runs throughout Scripture. Though the motif of spiritual warfare is rarely given its full due, the biblical narrative could in fact be accurately described as a story of God’s on-going conflict with, and ultimate victory over, cosmic and human agents who oppose him and who threaten his creation. (1)

In the Old Testament, this warfare is usually depicted in terms of God’s battle with hostile waters and vicious sea monsters that were believed to surround and threaten the earth. Whereas non-Israelites looked to various deities (e.g. Marduck, Baal) to resist these sinister cosmic forces, the Hebrews declared that it was Yahweh alone who warred against, rebuked, guarded, and trampled on the malevolent waters and who vanquished the cosmic monsters (e.g. Ps 29:3-4, 10; 74:10-14; 77:16, 19; 89:9-10; 104:2-9; Prov 8:27-29; Job 7:12; 9:8, 13; 26:12-13; 38:6-11; 40:-41; Ezek. 29:3; 32:2; Jer 51:34; Hab. 3:8-15; Na 1:4). We also read a great deal about rebel gods with whom God and his heavenly host must do battle. As is the case with the hostile waters and cosmic monsters, ancient Israelites never separated battles that took place on earth from battles that took place among the gods (e.g. 2 Sam 5:23-24; I Chron 12:22; Judg. 11:21-24). (2)

These depictions are obviously heavily influenced by standard Ancient Near Eastern mythological imagery, but they nevertheless powerfully communicate the understanding that the earth and its inhabitants exist in a cosmic war zone. Order in the cosmos and the preservation of Israel depend on God continually fighting against these evil cosmic forces. It’s clear biblical authors understood Yahweh’s victory over these forces to be praiseworthy precisely because they believed these opposing cosmic forces were formidable and that the battles in the spiritual realm were real.

Satan in the New Testament

Owing to a number of historical factors, the understanding that the earth is a war zone between good and evil cosmic forces intensified significantly among Jews in the two centuries leading up to Christ, commonly referred to as the apocalyptic period. (3) All indications are that Jesus and his earliest followers shared, and in some respects even intensified, this worldview.

For example, the role given to Satan by Jesus and his followers is without precedent in previous apocalyptic writings. According to John, Jesus believed that Satan was “the prince of this world” (Jn 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). The word translated “prince” (archon) customarily referred to “the highest official in a city or a region in the Greco-Roman world.” While Jesus and his followers of course believed that God was the ultimate Lord over all creation, they clearly viewed Satan as the functional lord of the earth at the present time.

Along the same lines, Satan is depicted as possessing “all the kingdoms of the world” — to the point where he gives authority to rule these kingdoms to anyone he pleases (Lk 4:5-6). In fact, the various kingdoms of the world can be described as a single kingdom under Satan’s rule (Rev. 11:15, cf. Rev. 13). John goes so far as to claim that the entire world is “under the power of the evil one” (I Jn 5:19) while Paul doesn’t shy away from labeling Satan “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4:4) and “the ruler of the kingdom of the air” (Eph. 2:2). It is because of this pervasive and oppressive diabolic influence that Paul, in typical apocalyptic fashion, depicts this present world system as fundamentally evil (Gal 1:4; Eph 5:6).
Everything Jesus was about was centered on vanquishing this empire, taking back the world that Satan had seized, and restoring its rightful viceroys – humans – to their position of guardians of the earth (Gen. 1:26-28, cf. 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 5:10). Each one of Jesus’ many healings and deliverances were understood to diminish Satan’s hold on the world and to liberate people, to whatever degree, from his stronghold. (4) Peter succinctly summarized Jesus’ ministry to Cornelius when he said that Jesus “went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil…” (Ac 10:38, emphasis added). Gustaf Wingren captures the point well when he writes:

When Jesus heals the sick and drives out evil spirits, Satan’s dominion is departing and God’s kingdom is coming (Mt 12:22-29). All Christ’s activity is therefore a conflict with the Devil (Acts 10:38). God’s Son took flesh and became man that he might overthrow the power of the Devil, and bring an end to his works (Heb 2.14f.; I John 3.8). (5) …

Christ’s Victory Over the Powers

According to the New Testament, the central thing Jesus did was drive out the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31). He came to “destroy the works of the devil” (I Jn 3:8). He came to “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” in order to “free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death” (Heb. 2:14-15). Jesus lived, died and rose again to establish a new reign that would ultimately “put all his enemies under his feet” (I Cor 15:25). Though “the strong man” was “fully armed,” one who was “stronger than he” had finally arrived who could attack and overpower him” (Lk 11:21-22). While the cosmic “thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy,” Jesus came into the world to vanquish the thief so that all “may have life and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them…” (Col 2:15). In a word, Jesus came to end the cosmic war that had been raging from time immemorial and to set Satan’s captives free ( Lk 4:18; Eph 4:8).

The first messianic prophecy given in Scripture — indeed, the first prophecy given, period — announced just this: a descendant of Eve would crush the head of the serpent who originally deceived humanity into joining in his rebellion (Gen. 3:15). (9) It is therefore not surprising that the original disciples expressed what the messiah accomplished in terms of a victory over the ancient serpent.

The very first Christian sermon, according to Luke, centered on this cosmic victory. After the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost, Peter stood up and preached:
This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.” ’
Therefore let the entire house of Israel know with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified” (Ac 2:32-36).

The central thing Jesus did, according to Peter, was fulfill Psalms 110:1. Jesus had been raised to a position of divine power (the Lord’s “right hand”) over his defeated and humiliated enemies (who are now his “footstool”). In an apocalyptic Jewish context, this is simply what it meant to say that Jesus brought the kingdom of God. To say the kingdom of God has come was to say the kingdom of Satan has been defeated.

This theme of victory over cosmic foes pervades the entire New Testament. Indeed, Psalms 110 is the most frequently cited passage in the New Testament, and it always, in a variety of ways, is used to express the truth that Christ is Lord because he has defeated God’s enemies (e.g. Mt 22:41-45; Mk 12:35-37; Lk 20:41-44; I Cor 15:22-25; Heb 1:13; 5:6, 10; 6:20; 7:11, 15,17,21; Heb 10:12-13, cf. . Mt 26:64; Mk 14:62; Lk 22:69; Ac 5:31; 7:55-56; Rom 8:34; I Cor 15:25; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3; 8:1; 10:12-13; I Pet 3:22; Rev. 3:21.).
The significance of this is difficult to overstate. In the words of Oscar Cullman:

“Nothing shows more clearly how the concept of the present Lordship of Christ and also of his consequent victory over the angel powers stands at the very center of early Christian thought than the frequent citation of Ps. 110:1, not only in isolated books, but in the entire NT.” (10)

Through his incarnation, life, teachings, death and resurrection, Jesus manifested the power of God over Satan, demons and the entire spectrum of rebellious principalities and powers. The one who created “thrones…dominions …rulers…[and] powers” (Col 1:16) became incarnate, died and was resurrected in order for God “to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross” (Col. 1:20). This is what Christ accomplished. In the words of Karl Heim, the cross is “God’s final settlement of the Satanic opposing power which has arisen against God.” (11) …

Salvation as a Cosmic and Anthropological Reality
The New Testament concept of salvation does not first and foremost mean “salvation from God’s wrath” and/or “salvation from hell” as many western Christians take it to mean – often with negative consequences for their mental picture of God and/or antinomian consequences for their life. Rather, it is a holistic concept that addresses Christ’s cosmic victory and our participation in it. As James Kallas says,

“…. since the cosmos itself is in bondage, depressed under evil forces, the essential content of the word “salvation” is that the world itself will be rescued, or renewed, or set free. Salvation is a cosmic event affecting the whole of creation…Salvation is not simply the overcoming of my rebellion and the forgiveness of my guilt, but salvation is the liberation of the whole world process of which I am only a small part. (12)

Christ has in principle freed the cosmos from its demonic oppression and thus freed all inhabitants of the cosmos who will simply submit to this new loving reign. …
Everything about Jesus’ life must be understood as an act of defiance against the powers, precisely because everything about his life was an act of self-sacrificial love. He rightfully owned the entire cosmos, but in loving service to others had no place to lay his head (Mt. 8:20). Though he had all power in heaven and earth, John reminds us, he used it to wash the dirty, smelly feet of his disciples – the very ones who would abandon him in a couple of hours (Jn 13:3-5). When Peter cut off a guard’s ear in self-defense, Jesus lovingly healed the attacker’s ear and rebuked Peter (Lk 22:50-51). When he could have called legions of angels to fight for him, out of love Jesus instead let himself be crucified (Mt 26:53). Forsaking the use of power over others for the sake of expressing the power of love towards others — this is what the kingdom of God looks like. And when it is manifested, as it is most decisively on Calvary, it defeats the rebellious gods of this age….

Jesus Substitutionary Death

Most evangelicals today understand Jesus’ death on Calvary in substitutionary terms (Jesus died in our place), not in Christus Victor terms. The Christus Victor model affirms that Jesus died as our substitute, bore our sin and guilt, was sacrificed for our forgiveness and was punished by the Father in our place (e.g Isa 53:4-5, 10; Rom 3:23-25; 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 2:17; 9:26; I Jn 2:2). But unlike the common substitutionary view espoused by many today, the Christus Victor view can affirm these important truths while avoiding a number of paradoxes that accompany the common substitutionary view — that is, without supposing that our individual sins, guilt and just punishment were somehow literally transferred onto Jesus and without supposing that Jesus had to literally placate the Father’s wrath.

In the Christus Victor view, Jesus died as our substitute and bore our sin and guilt by voluntarily experiencing the full force of the rebel kingdom we have all allowed to reign on the earth. To save us, he experienced the full consequences of sin that we otherwise would have experienced. In so doing, he broke open the gates of hell, destroyed the power of sin, erased the law that stood against us, and thereby freed us to receive the Holy Spirit and walk in right relatedness with God.
Along the same lines, in the Christus Victor view, Jesus was afflicted by the Father not in the sense that the Father’s rage burned directly toward his Son, but in the sense that God allowed evil agents to have their way with him for a greater good. This is how God’s wrath was usually expressed toward Israel in the Old Testament (e.g. Jud 2:11-19; Isa 10:5-6). It’s just that with Jesus, the greater good was not to teach Jesus obedience, as it usually was with Israel in the Old Testament. Instead, God the Son bore the Father’s wrath, expressed through the powers, for the greater good of demonstrating God’s righteousness against the powers and sin (Rom 3:25) while defeating the powers and setting humans free from their oppression. (17)

So too, the Christus Victor model can wholeheartedly affirm that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for many, but without supposing that Jesus literally had to buy off either God or the devil (Mk 10:45; Mt 20:28; cf. I Tim. 2:6; Heb 9:15). The word “ransom” simply means “the price of release” and was most commonly used when purchasing slaves from the slave market. (18) Hence, the Christus Victor model can simply take this to mean that Christ did whatever it took to release us from slavery to the powers, and this he did by become incarnate, living an outrageously loving life in defiance of the powers, freeing people from the oppression of the devil through healings and exorcisms, teaching the way of self-sacrificial love, and most definitively by his sacrificial death and victorious resurrection.

The Practical Signficance of the Christus Victor View
I’ll conclude by sharing a brief word about the practical significance of the Christus Victor model of the atonement.
One of the foremost problems with the western church today is that people understand what Jesus came to accomplish in legal terms. God is viewed as an austere and angry judge who wants to send us to hell, we are seen as guilty defendants deserving of hell, and Jesus is viewed as our defense attorney who wants to find a way to “get us off the hook” from going to hell. So he works out an arrangement whereby the Judge gets to vent his wrath, receiving full payment for sin, yet the guilty defendants are freed from their eternal sentence.
Now, there’s many problems associated with this legal-arrangement view of Jesus (such as, if the Father gets payed by Jesus’ death, did he really forgive our sin?). But what concerns me most is that this view easily divorces justification from sanctification. That is, so long as a person believes Jesus died as their substitute, they’re off the hook. How they actually live isn’t central to the legal arrangement. Given this view, it’s hardly surprising that there are millions of people in America who profess faith in Jesus but whose lives are indistinguishable from their pagan neighbors.

The Christus Victor understanding of the atonement avoids this completely. In this view, what Christ does for us cannot be separated, even theoretically, from what Christ does in us. One either participates in Christ’s cosmic victory over the powers or they do not. If they do, their lives by definition will be increasingly characterized by the ability and willingness to overcome evil with good as they imitate the Calvary-quality life of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:1-2). (19) The idea that one is “saved” by intellectually believing in the legal transaction Jesus allegedly engaged in with God the Father can thus be dismissed as magic.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: Tom] #113708
05/27/09 07:32 PM
05/27/09 07:32 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM asked that the Christus Victor theme be explained, so I grabbed the above from here: http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-jesus/the-christus-victor-view-of-the-atonement/

I condensed it as much as I could, while still trying to keep the gist of it. I'd highly recommend reading the complete article.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: Tom] #113885
05/31/09 03:12 AM
05/31/09 03:12 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
i took the last part and put all of it up. i would ask that we all take it part by part and see if there is anything we would disagree with.

Quote:
The Practical Signficance of the Christus Victor View
I’ll conclude by sharing a brief word about the practical significance of the Christus Victor model of the atonement.

One of the foremost problems with the western church today is that people understand what Jesus came to accomplish in legal terms. God is viewed as an austere and angry judge who wants to send us to hell, we are seen as guilty defendants deserving of hell, and Jesus is viewed as our defense attorney who wants to find a way to “get us off the hook” from going to hell. So he works out an arrangement whereby the Judge gets to vent his wrath, receiving full payment for sin, yet the guilty defendants are freed from their eternal sentence.

Now, there’s many problems associated with this legal-arrangement view of Jesus (such as, if the Father gets payed by Jesus’ death, did he really forgive our sin?). But what concerns me most is that this view easily divorces justification from sanctification. That is, so long as a person believes Jesus died as their substitute, they’re off the hook. How they actually live isn’t central to the legal arrangement. Given this view, it’s hardly surprising that there are millions of people in America who profess faith in Jesus but whose lives are indistinguishable from their pagan neighbors.

The Christus Victor understanding of the atonement avoids this completely. In this view, what Christ does for us cannot be separated, even theoretically, from what Christ does in us. One either participates in Christ’s cosmic victory over the powers or they do not. If they do, their lives by definition will be increasingly characterized by the ability and willingness to overcome evil with good as they imitate the Calvary-quality life of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:1-2). (19) The idea that one is “saved” by intellectually believing in the legal transaction Jesus allegedly engaged in with God the Father can thus be dismissed as magic.

A related practical advantage of the Christus Victor view of the atonement is that, in sharp contrast to the hyper-individualistic outlook of most Americans, the Christus Victor model puts on center stage the easily-overlooked demonic dimension of all fallen social structures. By calling on disciples to join Christ’s rebellion against the ever-present powers, the Christus Victor perspective inspires disciples to live counter-cultural lives that are persistently on-guard against the demonically seductive pull of nationalism, patriotism, culturally endorsed violence, greed, racism and a host of other structural evils that are part of the spiritually polluted air we all breath. This view motivates believers to take seriously the revelation that the devil has power over the whole world (I Jn 5:19), including all the nations of the world (Lk 4: 5-6) and thereby helps them guard against all forms of idolatry while motivating them toward radical, non-violent, social action. (20)

As Christ established the kingdom of God by the ways his life, ministry, teachings and death contrasted with the power-dominated kingdom of the world, so his followers are called to advance the kingdom of God by living lives that sharply contrast with the kingdom of the world. Instead of trusting the power of worldly force, we are to trust the “foolish” power of the cross and thereby proclaim its wisdom to the gods of this age (Eph 3:10). Following the example of our captain, we are to always overcome evil with good, trusting that when Easter morning comes it is goodness that will have won the day – and the entire cosmos.

The fact that the American Church contrasts with the broader culture so little in this all-important respect is to me a sure indication of just how badly we need to embrace the early church’s Christus Victor understanding of the atonement.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: Tom] #113900
05/31/09 12:27 PM
05/31/09 12:27 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Quote:
without supposing that our individual sins, guilt and just punishment were somehow literally transferred onto Jesus and without supposing that Jesus had to literally placate the Father’s wrath.


Yes, this is a huge difference, so Jesus is neither a Biblical propitiation nor did he exhaust God's judgement on sin.

The Bible story of God, man, sin and grace is so complex, so multifacetted, so multilayered, that this essay appears to be trying to avoid Evangelical theology - justification by faith is a legal status of pardon/forgiveness and that sort of thing, and not an inner change and renewal, so just an intellectual agreement that God is right.

Including the work of Jesus' Spirit within us, doesn't prevent a necessary legal transaction taking place, since it's the legal basis of that new life. Actually, this essay fails to elborate on what justification itself is, since it blurs it with sanctification - perpetuating another evangelical confusion! - but one can imply if one really wants to that it's talking of justification as an experience. The implication of the essay is that justification is not internal, but sanctification is, and must be included in our gospel experience.

This is hopeless, as the evangelicals, rightly, refuse to do so, already, making sanctification essential to the gospel for us, based on their own teachings, since they limit justification to our perfection "in Christ", personally, physically, representatively - but not put in us, and perfect obedience is therefore not an option. Evangelicals have other points which exclude perfect obedience, too, but this is enough for now.

On this combination - legal and personal justification, our church agrees and has always agreed, but doesn't say so much. This essay tries to do the same, but appears to have failed, making sanctification, not justification, the even of our renewal. Maybe it's just this writer being quoted.

On the meaning of substitution itself, the Bible, and our church, has always taught Jesus suffered God's holy wrath against sin and God's judgement against sin, unlike this theory...

Interesting how the lake of fire and annihilation of the wicked there, plus Ellen White's mention also of proportional punishment there, depict God's holy judgement of and punishment against sin.

Now..., where in this essay is any mention of the death to sin which our Saviour daily chose and suffered on the cross for us which we experience by faith in him? Yes, not suffering the full affects of sin, but dying to sin itself?

Last edited by Colin; 05/31/09 12:52 PM.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: Colin] #113906
05/31/09 03:49 PM
05/31/09 03:49 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Colin, it doesn't appear to me that you've understood what the author was trying to communicate. Before finding fault with what he's saying, it would be good to at least understand the points he's trying to make. What do you think his main points were?

Regarding the points you find fault with, let's consider what the Scriptures have to say. The author was able to support his POV with scores of Scripture texts from the Gospels. He went of what Jesus' own teaching was regarding His death, and demonstrated from Jesus' own words the Christus Victor concept. Can you do the same for penal substitution?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: Tom] #113908
05/31/09 04:33 PM
05/31/09 04:33 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
The penal substitution of Christ for us in the judgement by God due us, is covered very well in the legal matters raised in these EGW quotes Dedication was kind enough to provide.



Do you want me to comment on these?


Yes, let's do these here, as you wanted to comment?
Quote:
"The ark that enshrines the tables of the law is covered with the mercy seat, before which Christ pleads His blood in the sinner's behalf. Thus is represented the union of justice and mercy in the plan of human redemption. . . . {AG 69.2}

" By the offering of blood, the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the day of atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims.{GC 420

Our position is like that of the Israelites on the Day of Atonement. When the High Priest entered the most holy place, representing the place where our High Priest is now pleading, and sprinkled the atoning blood upon the mercy seat, no propitiatory sacrifices were offered without. While the priest was interceding with God, every heart was to be bowed in contrition, pleading for the pardon of transgression.--The Signs of the Times, June 28, 1899.

The sinner could not come in his own person, with his guilt upon him, and with no greater merit then he possessed in himself. Christ alone could open the way, by making an offering equal to the demands of the divine law. He was perfect, and undefiled by sin. He was without spot or blemish. --The Review and Herald, Dec. 17, 1872.

Few have a real understanding that our great High Priest presents before the Father His own blood, claiming for the sinner who receives Him as his personal Saviour all the graces which His covenant embraces as the reward of His sacrifice. Manuscript 92, 1899. {7ABC 484.7}

Jesus stands before the Father, continually offering a sacrifice for the sins of the world. He is the minister of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man....because of the continual commission of sin, the atoning sacrifice of a heavenly Mediator is essential. Jesus, our great high priest, officiates for us in the presence of God, offering in our behalf His shed blood.-- The Youth's Instructor, April 16, 1903.

Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ?--The Signs of the Times, Dec. 30, 1889

Re: Christus Victor [Re: Colin] #113911
05/31/09 05:07 PM
05/31/09 05:07 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Ok. There's too many to do all at once, so I'll do them a bit at a time.

Quote:
"The ark that enshrines the tables of the law is covered with the mercy seat, before which Christ pleads His blood in the sinner's behalf. Thus is represented the union of justice and mercy in the plan of human redemption. . . . {AG 69.2}


My understanding of this I think is best explained by the following:

Quote:
Paul says of Christ: “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence.” This plainly shows that God’s love and favor, had God been unwise, might have abounded toward us in an imprudent way; but through Jesus they were so prudently manifest that the sinner may have pardon and peace, and yet not be led thereby to regard sin lightly; yea, more, he may have pardon and peace, and yet the law be so exalted and magnified that multitudes will be led back to their allegiance.

If the governor of a State should indiscriminately pardon all offenses against the law, it would absolutely abolish all restraint of law. The motive in his mind might be love, but the love would be so unwisely and imprudently manifested that it would lead to anarchy and misery. The same is true of the Governor of the universe. His love and his wisdom are one. His pardoning power must be so exercised in “wisdom and prudence” as to lead men to unity and joy, and not to anarchy and misery, else it is not love...

Sin is secession from the government of God. Satan seceded, and sought to exalt his throne above that of God. Sinners are those who have joined themselves to Satan’s forces in the secession. God, in infinite love, sens his own and only Son to put down the rebellion. He cannot pardon those who are still in rebellion, for this would but justify the rebellion and dishonor the law, and so perpetuate and multiply the misery. But through Jesus this rebellion is finally to be put down entirely. “The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent’s head.” O’er every hilltop of earth and heaven, where for a short time there has waved the black standard of the man of sin, there shall forever float the white pennon of the Prince of Peace.

Every one who lays down his arms and surrenders his opposing will to God has the promise of pardon. This pardon God can grant, and not dishonor his law. Yea, more, it is through this pardon that the mercy and love of God’s law and government are revealed, -- a love that only commanded the right way, not to be arbitrary and domineering, but that men might be happy, -- a love what when men repent of the wrong, and turn back their hearts toward the broken law, is ever willing to forgive the past and give power for future obedience. It is thus that God can be just, and still the justifier of those who believe on Jesus. It is thus that faith in Jesus exalts the law of God to the highest heavens, and established it forever.

The cross of Calvary, to the whole universe of intelligent beings, is the greatest demonstration that ever has been or ever can be given that God’s law is eternal and universal, and yet that his love is infinity; reaching down with tender, fatherly longing to life up the lowest transgressor.
In fact, his love is his law, and the law is unchangeable because his love is from everlasting to everlasting. When men behold this, they are led to repent of past transgressions, and to pray for power for future obedience. It is thus that Christ is exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. It is thus that the atonement is made, and rebellious men are led back into unity with God and with one another....(God is Love, George Fifield)


As this is rather a long quote (I'd really like to quote the whole chapter, entitled "The Sacrifice of Christ Honors God's Law") I underlined some key points.

In the first paragraph is an answer to a question that's often asked, which is that, if God is forgiveness personified and doesn't need Christ's blood in order to pardon our sins, why didn't He just do so?

The rest of the quote deals with the question of how justice and mercy are united in Christ's death, which is what EGW's quote is addressing.

The second quote has to do with the Day of Atonement, which a whole subject in and of itself. I'll just comment briefly that I belief the Day of Atonement ministry of Christ has primarily to do with preparing the way for Christ to come again, and that this involves the preparation of a people who will stand before God without a Mediator. I believe Christ's ministry in the MHP involves bringing His people into perfect harmony with the law.

I don't think this quote has anything to do with penal substitution, and, indeed, 99%+ of those who believe in penal substitution wouldn't agree with this quote. It seems a bit out of place.

I guess a similar comment would apply to quote number three. I think discussing the Day of Atonement would merit a thread of its own. Obviously the application of Christ's blood is not literal; He didn't have a pail of blood in heaven.

You know, I've been asking time and time again for an explanation of what this symbolizes, so it seems fair to me that I be given an explanation, since I asked first. Regarding my thoughts on the matter, I've offered a starting point in saying I believe the blood represents Christ's life.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: Colin] #113912
05/31/09 05:23 PM
05/31/09 05:23 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
Quote:
without supposing that our individual sins, guilt and just punishment were somehow literally transferred onto Jesus and without supposing that Jesus had to literally placate the Father’s wrath.
Now..., where in this essay is any mention of the death to sin which our Saviour daily chose and suffered on the cross for us which we experience by faith in him? Yes, not suffering the full affects of sin, but dying to sin itself?


i find this question to be very enlightening and the core of the whole issue.

what, exactly, did Christ die to? "sin" is rather vague. what "sins" exactly did He die to?

i believe this quote, not to mention much of the article, contradicts the conclusion presented.
Quote:
But what concerns me most is that this view easily divorces justification from sanctification. That is, so long as a person believes Jesus died as their substitute, they’re off the hook. How they actually live isn’t central to the legal arrangement.


this is a very real reality for much of the "christian" world and the author is dealing with that. that is why this bothers me so much also.

Quote:
it means because HE died to our sin, we died to sin. Therefore it is apparent that our dying to sin is not something we do, but something Christ has done, and is something that is accounted to all who are united with Him!


and no, dedication, i dont "have it in for you". i dont "hate you", or any other conclusion you have come to about me when i disagree with you. that statement doesnt tell anyone what Christ died to, what He suffered. (im not even sure its legitimate. Christ "died to sin" every moment of His life....when He physically died that is something else. 1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;)
Quote:
The idea that one is “saved” by intellectually believing in the legal transaction Jesus allegedly engaged in with God the Father can thus be dismissed as magic.


lets get on the same page with this gentleman and what he is addressing, por please. smile

are there people who believe


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: teresaq] #113917
05/31/09 06:12 PM
05/31/09 06:12 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
For me the expression that Christ died to sin means that He said no to every temptation to sin, the most severe of which He experienced on the cross.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christus Victor [Re: Tom] #113919
05/31/09 06:25 PM
05/31/09 06:25 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The sinner could not come in his own person, with his guilt upon him, and with no greater merit then he possessed in himself. Christ alone could open the way, by making an offering equal to the demands of the divine law. He was perfect, and undefiled by sin. He was without spot or blemish. --The Review and Herald, Dec. 17, 1872.


Continuing this quote, the next two sentences say:

Quote:
The extent of the terrible consequences of sin could never have been known, had not the remedy provided been of infinite value. The salvation of fallen man was procured at such an immense cost that angels marveled, and could not fully comprehend the divine mystery that the majesty of Heaven, equal with God, should die for the rebellious race.


I think the underlined portion is key to understanding Ellen White's comment here. I don't think Ellen White's comment can be understood as saying that God could not have pardoned man without Christ's death, as if this were something necessary on God's part, because the same issue would have applied to Lucifer, so some other explanation needs to be found.

Quote:
Few have a real understanding that our great High Priest presents before the Father His own blood, claiming for the sinner who receives Him as his personal Saviour all the graces which His covenant embraces as the reward of His sacrifice. Manuscript 92, 1899. {7ABC 484.7}


I agree with this statement. Few have a real understanding. I'll certainly include myself among those who need to understand this better.

Again, I think it's clear that the statement here is not to be understood literally. Christ does not literally stand before the Father, presenting His blood to Him. Obviously this is symbolism. The question is, what is the point of the symbolism.

We don't really think the Father needs to here from Christ of His blood, do we? Surely the Father knows of Christ's sacrifice, and of Christ's blood. So this statement is written to communicate something to us. What is it trying to communicate?

A great deal could be written about this, but surely a key point is that our acceptance with God, nor any of the blessings which we receive, are not dependent upon our own merits, but rather upon the gift of Christ.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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