Okay, John, I see your point. I'm a big dog lover, and comparing the way God feels when we turn our backs on Him to how an adoring and faithful puppy feels made perfect sense to me. But I can see how it might not sound appropriate to someone else. I thought about using a venomous reptile to illustrate the love of Jesus, but that seemed out of place. Not that God has never likened Himself unto a snake. I guess it's better to let God compare Himself to animals. Instead of a puppy, maybe I should have used a lamb? But I like puppies better than lambs, they're cuter and smarter and don't stink near as bad. Solomon didn't have any problem comparing God's love for us using animals as an example.

John
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Song of Solomon
1:9 I have compared thee, O my love, to a company of horses in Pharaoh's chariots.
2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.
4:1 Behold, thou [art] fair, my love; behold, thou [art] fair; thou [hast] doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair [is] as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
4:2 Thy teeth [are] like a flock [of sheep that are even] shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none [is] barren among them.

Mike.

How could a health reform anounce by EGW 130 years ago be of any goodness in this last years of heavy pollution, whether on ground, under water and off ground?

Not only that, with the hi tech investigation and research, we found out that what is said as unclean in the past is now a healthy thing to consume, and what is healthy is unclean now. In the 3rd world countries, where fresh food is sold in the conventional market and Super market without any label of warnings or Health Department inspections marks, how could we know that what we eat is healthy for us, meanwhile all the vegetables sold is full with insecticide, and we eat it every day.

Now, I hear news that drinking tea is a healthy diet, eating chicken wing brought death because it was infected with Flu virus.

So, I think, that what we eat is no longer an issue of salvation. Eating pork now is much healthier than eating chicken wing. And I continue to eat what the OT said about unclean meat because I didn’t see it as something that might hinder me to enter heaven. We are saved from the death for Christ has given us our life back, we are fit for heaven because we have the love of God in our heart, we understood what love is and we are willing to love God and our neighbors.

But what we eat or drink, does it matter? How could I know that what I eat is healthy? How could I know that what I think is healthy, in reality is unclean and the cause of many sickness? How could I know that what I drink would make me sick or would make me healty?

1 Corinthians 10:25.
Whatever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1 Corinthians 10:27.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1 Timothy 4:4
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.
Ephesians 2:14,15
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcille both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.


What do you think?

In His love

James S

James, you raise good points. The world we live in is being turned upside down by disease and disasters. Nothing is safe any more. Living in harmony with God, therefore, requires us to do those things that promote sound mind and body, the best health possible. True, optimum health is not possible any more, but we must exercise common sense using the word of God to guide us. A vegan diet, wherever possible, is clearly the best and safest. The SOP has made this crystal clear. To doubt the testimonies is to flirt with death.

quote:

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1 Corinthians 10:25.
Whatever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

1 Corinthians 10:27.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

---

These two passages are talking about eating clean meat that was dedicated to pagan idols. Paul's point is that idols do not mnake clean meat unfit for food.

quote:

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1 Timothy 4:4
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.

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You left out the next verse. "For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Everything sanctified, or set apart, by the word of God is good for food. That is, providing it isn't diseased or contaminated.

quote:

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Ephesians 2:14,15
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcille both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

---

The law of God is not our enemy, it is our school teacher. The ordinances Paul is talking about here have to do with the temple services. Now that Jesus is our mediator and high priest in the heavenly sanctuary we have better promises upon which to build our faith.

Living in harmony with God means imitating the holy and righteous example of Jesus, which includes avoiding body destroying practices and adopting the very best lifestyle possible, given our immediate circumstances. If we refuse to obey the counsel of God as outlined in the Bible and the SOP then we are rejecting God Himself - which is not a good state to be in, especially since we are living in the last days.

These two passages are talking about eating clean meat that was dedicated to pagan idols. Paul's point is that idols do not mnake clean meat unfit for food.

Unquote.

Mike.

How do you know that what Paul meant is eating clean meat that was dedicated to pagan idols?

Let’s see the first passage:

Eat whatever is sold in the market! Now, do you think that those Corinthian’s believers originated from pagan believers, are going to buy their meat in the Jewish market? Are they not going to their own market where everything is sold? Did Paul give a clear distinction whether those Corinthian’s believers must go to buy their meat in the Jewish market? Are you sure that those Corinthian’s believers understood that the law of clean and unclean meat stil binds them and exist in its jurisdiction after the cross?

Now, let’s see the 2nd passage:

A Corinthian’s believer was invited to a feast by his pagan neighbor, his daughter birthday for example. What does he expect to find at the table served to him? Clean meats? Does his neighbor knows what he believed? Does he care about his neighbor’s believe and served him clean meat, understanding that his neighbor, who was Christ believers, observe the doctrine of clean and unclean meat? How could he knew that his neighbor, an ex pagan and now is Christ’ believer would and could not eat unclean meat as the Jews does?

I really think, that this pagan neighbor would serve his neighbor, who was a believer anything that was made by his wife, and surely I knew it would be of any kind of mixed clean and unclean meat. Probably a whole pork steak is on his plate, but should he refused this offer, hurting his neighbor’s feeling and pride? Paul’s issue was only about meats offered to idols, but I think, he didn’t made a distinction whether what meat is offered; is it clean or unclean.

In His love

James S.

As this can be a major topic of its own, the digression to eating clean and unclean meat needs to continue in a different existing topic or by creating a new topic.

It would appear that saying and doing are not always synonymous, at least from God's point of view. What do you think? If we refuse to live in harmony with the will of God, that is, obey His laws (i.e., imitate the example of Jesus), will He, in spite of our disobedience, invite us to join Him and His friends to live eternally in heaven and the New Earth? Never mind the diet thing. Is faith, and faith alone, enough to ensure us a place in the kingdom of God? Or, does it require faith AND corresponding works to be saved?

- - - - - Quoted from Mike post to Will - - - - - -

A serious question.

How could we, who were led by the Spirit do the things that are not in harmony with God’s law, meanwhile all our deeds are fruits of the Spirit.

I think, only the moral law that is written on our hearts, which we are responsible to follow, but we could only do and fulfill it demands through the power of the Spirit.

Does not accepting the vegan diet might close the door of heaven for us? Would it hinder God to invite us to join Him and His friends in heaven and the new earth? Meanwhile these laws are not the moral law, and is not written in our heart.

If this is true, there must be a solid reason to believe it.

In His love

James S.

James, I hope and pray you get the diet and health issue figured out some day.

Recently at a Christian (non-SDA) Message Board they were talking about eating ham sandwiches and was there anything wrong with that since Jesus said in Matthew 5:11 "Not that which goes into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out". So below is just a copy and paste of what I wrote there, maybe it will help someone some way when it comes to the issue of Diet:

Isaiah 66:15-17:
"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD."

Being that I am a Seventh Day Adventist, I probably have a different view about the food issue than most everyone here, but here goes...

The Bible positively states that all who eat "swine's flesh", "the mouse" and other unclean things that are an "abomination" will be destroyed with fire at the coming of the Lord. When God says to leave something alone and not eat it, we should by all means obey Him. After all, when Adam and Eve ate a mere piece of forbidden fruit this is what brought sin and death into the world in the first place.

Can we say it doesnt matter when the Word of God plainly shows that it does? God says that men will be destroyed because they "chose that in which I delighted not" Isaiah 66:4.

Many believe that the law of clean and unclean animals originated at Sinai and that it was "for the Jews only" and ended at the cross. But the Bible gives ample evidence that there were designated both clean and unclean animals from the beginning of time. The animals were taken into the ark ..clean animals by "sevens" and unclean by "twos". Revelation 18:2 refers to some birds being unclean just before the second coming of Christ.

The death of Christ has no altering effect on health laws since the Bible says that ALL who break them will be destroyed when Jesus returns (Isaish 66:15-17).

The laws of nature are the laws of nature and they dont discriminate between Jews and Christians... neither do diseases that come from eating pork and other things. Leviticus 3:17 says to eat neither fat nor blood. Recent scientific studies confirm that most heart attacks come from a high cholesterol level in the blood and that the use of "fats" is largely responsible for this high level. It looks like God knows what He is talking about after all.

When God said "Thou shalt not kill" He also meant that we should not kill our own selves by degress, "suicide on the installment plan" is not a real option just because you're a Christian.

"Be not deceived, whatever a man sows he shall reap" Galatians 6:7. Trouble comes when we disregard and ignore God's health laws. If a parent uses drugs for instance, he or she will transmit weaknesses to their children Deuteronomy 12:25. God makes it plain that children and grandchildren (to the fourth generation) pay the price for the folly of parents who disregard God's rules. Ezekiel 11:21 says that God will recompense their way upon their own heads" if a man walks after detestable things and abominations.

1. I Timothy 4:4 says that every creature of God is good and nothing is to be refused"... is this a license to eat and drink whatever you want to?


This Scripture refers to meats that "God hath created to be received with thanksgiving"... but we already know that clean meats are listed in Leviticus chapter 11 and Deut. chapter 14. Verse 5 tells why these animals or foods are acceptable, they are "sanctified" by God's Word, but the Bible also says that God will destroy those who try to "sanctify themselves" while disobeying God and eating unclean foods (Isaiah 66:17).

Matthew 5:11 says "Not that which goes into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out". What does this mean?

The subject in this passage is about not first washing the hands before eating. The focus is not upon eating, but washing. The scribes taught that eating any food without a ceremonial washing defiled the eater. Jesus said ceremonial washings were meaningless. in verse 19 Jesus lists certain evils adulteries, murder, thefts (in other words breaking the ten commandments) are the things that REALLY defile a man (verse 20)

But then some believe that Jesus cleanses all animals in Peter's vision as recorded in Acts 10. No! The subject of this vision is people, not animals. God gave Peter this vision to tell him that Gentiles were not to be regarded as unclean, as the Jews believed. God had instructed Cornelius, a Gentile, to send men to visit Peter.

Peter would've refused to see them, had God not given him this vision because Jewish law forbade entertaining Gentiles (verse 28). Peter said God showed him that he was not to regard any MAN unclean.

So why did God make the hog, then... if not to eat? He made it for the same purpose that He made buzzards- as a scavenger to clean up garbage. It was never intended for food.

What about Romans 14:13,14 "Let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth". "There is nothing unclean of itself". The passage are a discussion of those who eat certain things and they who do not. It does not say that either is right or wrong, it merely says not to pass judgment on each other. Let God be the judge. Verses 14 and 20 refer to foods that were once offered to idols (and were thus ceremonially unclean) -not to the clean and unclean meats of Leviticus chapter 11. The point was that no food is to be regarded as "unclean" just because it has first been offered to idols because an idol "is nothing in the world" 1 Cor. 8:4. But if it offends your conscience or even a brother you should leave it alone.

God ALLOWED certain meats after the flood, but it did not mean that these foods were the ideal diet for man. Genesis1:29;2:16 tells us God gave man a vegetarian diet. "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat".

Seventh Day Adventists who eat a vegetarian diet live on the average of 7 to 10 years longer than the general population. It isnt because they are Seventh Day Adventists, it is because they eat what God originally intended them to eat. In heaven there will be no killing... Revelation 21:4 says there will be no more death. There wont be any killing of animals for food.

3 John:2: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Isaiah 55:2 "Eat that which is good"

1 Corinthians 10:31
"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

God wishes for His people to be physically healthy as well as spiritually healthy. If we can add years to our lives and live healthier lives by eating and drinking healthy foods then we ought to do it. That is so much more years given to us to preach the Gospel to others.

Life is a gift from God, seek to live it as healthily as you can. Seek to live for God's glory... dont seek to find the lowest leavel that you can "get away with" and still manage to be "saved".

Remember Daniel, He and his friends refused to eat the King's food... and they asked to be allowed to eat "pulse" which was a vegetarian diet. It turned out he and his friends were better off physically, mentally and spiritually. (see Daniel chapter 1)They were able to think more clearly, God gave them understanding in visions, and in prophecies.

God does allow certain foods and He also condemns the use of certain foods. We ought to seek for the highest level... to glorify God, because after all our bodies are "not our own" and were meant to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor:6:20: "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1Cor:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Go back to the original diet for man and it will greatly decrease health problems. You will be doing what God originally intended. Not to "gain merit", but because you love God and love your fellow man... and because you love yourself who God created. Stop asking what you can "get away with" and still perhaps get to heaven... and start living for the glory of God. Every time you abuse your body you take time off your life which you could've used to spread the Gospel message and help others... and you diminish the quality of the life that you do have left.

.

[ January 01, 2005, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

I forgot to add the pages I gave them for references:

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http://my.webmd.com/content/article/35/1728_84376

http://www.thefountainoflife.ws/cancer/nocancer.htm

http://www.llu.edu/info/legacy/LegacyC.html

http://news.adventist.org/data/2001/06/0995375716/index.html.en