Mike,


Q1: Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God?
A1: No I dont. A person will burn in hell for not believing IN Christ Jesus, for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and for not having their sins forgiven

Q2:And, do you feel Sister White's counsel on diet contradicts the law of God?
A2: The way you use it YES

Q3:If so, would you be willing to explain how and why?
A3: I did for the last 3 pages.

Q4: Where in the Bible does it say it is lawful to eat meat even if it is sickly and causes cancer and heart disease?

A4: Did I EVER suggest eating sickly animals? I went through great length to explain NOT TO EAT SICK ANIMALS. You have yet to show me where it says its not Ok to eat clean meat..


Q5: If so, then what, in your mind, constitutes the will of God?

A5: To share the Gospel with others. Thats His will one of many. In fact so many you can find it in the 66 books that make up the bible, and I dont see a person condemed to hell for eating a piece of fish, so thats definitely NOT HIS WILL.

You have not been able to tell me wherethe Bible a person is condemned from entering heaven for eating chicken.. This is getting not only old, but stupid. WHy is it stupid you may ask if there is absolutelyu nothing stupid with the Cross.. Well it is stupid tocondemn people for eating CLEAN MEATS plain and simple, and what you , and havebotare preaching here on this forum is contrary to Scripture. I don't care if Sister White "Says.." this or that. You have used it incorrectly, and have taken the place of the Bible. Personally that is beyond treading dangerous waters. Christ has been ursurped in favor of a book that is not in the Bible, and to claim "Well she was as inspired as the writers" does not make her canonized, does not add to the book (which by the way willresult in a curse).. This is where the Seventh-Day Adventist Church gets weird,strange, and just off thewall.. GIVE ME A VERSE WHERE FISHEATING SENDS A PERSON TO HELL.. I want to know if munching on Red Snapper is gonna send my neighbor to hell, show me where eating salmons is going to send me to hell SHOW ME THE MONEY! I am tired of the verbal gymnatics. If you can;t back it up then dont use it as if it were there.


God Bless,
Will

By the way.. you will not go to hell for eating meat. I dont care if youwant to use the "kosher\non koser" angle, I don't care if you want to use the "well in SisterWhites time even the best meat was bad" routine.. or "Diet and helth says" bla.. You cannot prove at all in priciple, in actual Scripture nothing about condemning a person for eating meat Clean meats by the way incase youplan on dragging this out to 9 pages on the finer points of semantics of the english language past and present. You will lose more people instead of winning souls to heaven. I will call a spade a spade..no hair splitting here.

Will posted:

quote:

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This is where the Seventh-Day Adventist Church gets weird,strange, and just off thewall..

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What do you mean by this?

Regarding the dangers of eating meat and vegetables, a newspaper I read last week had two articles about "ehec" (its a bacteria I think), one was about cattle who carried it, the other was about a fotball (or soccer in america) tournament where several contestants had been infected. First they thought it came with the water but now it seems the infection carrier was fresh vegetables served during the tournament. One serious disease being sourced both trough meat and vegetables. I also remember reading the same about the e-coli bacteria.

quote:
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Q; Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God?

A; What Jesus taught in Matthew. Chapter 18, the parable about the unmerciful servant. Refusing to extend to others the forgiveness and grace recieved from God. Chapter 22, the wedding of the kings son. Refusing to heed the invitation given. Chapter 25, lack of oil (Holy Spirit). Refusing to use what God has given. Not doing good deeds to whomever needs them.

Q; If so, then what, in your mind, constitutes the will of God?

A; The will of God. John chapter 6, That all who see Jesus and believe in Him shall have eternal life and that none of these should be lost. Romans chapter 12, that we would not conform to the world but be transformed by the renewal of our thoughts to know Gods will. 1 Thess chapter 4, that we shall become holy, honouring our bodies trough keeping them away from unlawful sex, immorality. 1 Thess chapter 5, being happy, praying at all times, giving thanks to God. 1 Pet chapter 2, doing good things so that noone have anything legitimate to accuse us for.

On a whole it seems that what God says, we humans easily make into rules and with time forget the principles behind what God said. Matt 9:13 seems to be something that keeps reappearing, first with the prophets and then in Jesus preaching. There must be a reason for this.

Q; And, do you feel Sister White's counsel on diet contradicts the law of God?

A; As Will has been pointing out, when made into a salvation issue. There is an example in the bible about a good health advice, how it was seen by the people and what its place should be according to Jesus. The example: pharisees and lawyers questioning Jesus on His diciples not washing their hands before they eat, to wich Jesus answered among other things, "its not what goes into the mouth that makes a man unclean". Nothing wrong with the good piece of advice as long as its not elevated to the same heights as Gods commandments.

Q; If so, would you be willing to explain how and why?

A; Everything that a person needs to know in order to be saved is written in the holy Bible. Other things may be good and wholesome but will not and can not replace the clear truths in this word of God. Could Gal 3:15-23 be compared?

Q; Where in the Bible does it say it is lawful to eat meat even if it is sickly and causes cancer and heart disease?

A; Ehm, meat from sick animals or animals who died of sickness is not to be eaten. On the other hand noone is trying to argue that it should be. Its easy scoring points by kicking in open doors...

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Tom and John, that hurt. I thought a personal testimony would help you guys appreciate where I'm coming from. I guess I need to think twice before bearing my soul. Perhaps you didn't intend for your words to wound, but sometimes it's not so much what is said as what is left unsaid. Who can be more guilty than myself? I'm very glad our God is merciful.

Will, you sound very passionate about this. I can appreciate the fact you are unwilling to believe God will burn someone in hell simply because they eat the animals permitted in the book of Leviticus. Also, thank you for answering the questions I posted. We will probably never agree on the vegan issue, which is fine, but the way you answered the first question gave me pause.

quote:

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Q1: Do you believe a person will burn in hell if they refuse to live in harmony with the will of God?
A1: No I dont. A person will burn in hell for not believing IN Christ Jesus, for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and for not having their sins forgiven

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The things you named that disqualifies a person from entering into the joy of the Lord are fundamentally the will of God. If a person refuses to live in harmony with the will of God is he not in essence rejecting his ticket to heaven? Can a person believe in Jesus, accept Him as Saviour, ask forgiveness for sins and not be in harmony with God's will? Well, apparently it is possible to do all these things and still be lost. Here's a thought that seems to speak to this very issue:

Matthew
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John
15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

It would appear that saying and doing are not always synonymous, at least from God's point of view. What do you think? If we refuse to live in harmony with the will of God, that is, obey His laws (i.e., imitate the example of Jesus), will He, in spite of our disobedience, invite us to join Him and His friends to live eternally in heaven and the New Earth? Never mind the diet thing. Is faith, and faith alone, enough to ensure us a place in the kingdom of God? Or, does it require faith AND corresponding works to be saved?

EDITED this post by making bold - Never mind the diet thing.

[ November 07, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,
It is interesting you used John15:10, as I do not see a commandment banning the consumptioon of eating chicken,salmon or turkey. Where did you get that idea from?
God Bless,
Will

Daryl,
I response to your question about what did I mean. Well here goes:
In our church (Not the church itself, but members) there are people who profess to be sinless, there are people who think that making food on the Sabbath for poor people is violating the Sabbath, there are people who claim that the church is babylon because some people want to use the NIV, and there are people who think that any harmful substancethat enters the body will give you a one way ticket to hell, and if you have long hair as a man you are an abomination to God, and last but definitely not least. People who think that by me eating a slice of pizza that uses mozzarella cheese which is a dairy product, and uses cheese will prevent me or anyone for that matter to go to heaven, and if I eat some fish.. Opps there you go sorry cant go to heaven. You ate fish. Sorry but that is definitely not in the Bible, and I am not putting up with any rhetoric especially when no Bible verses are provided.
That constitutes for me weird, strange, and off the wall. Crazy world we live in, and even crazier times. I don't know about many of you but the God I serve doesn't throw people out for having a chicken wing, or eating..cheese sticks !
God Bless,
Will

Mike, I'm sorry what I said was hurtful. It appeared to me you were asking my opinion, so that's what it is. Perhaps I've judged you incorrectly. I hope so. It does appear to me that you view yourself in the terms Ellen White was describing in the passage I cited. Once again, I hope I'm wrong.

Fortunately, I'm no judge. God, who is infinite in mercy, is the judge.

By the way, I don't begrudge the experience you shares in "bearing your soul." I do not doubt that you have had a genuine conversion experience, or that God has worked wonderfully in your life. That was not what I was referring to.

I see in your theology a great danger in that it makes it possible for one to think that one is not sinning when in fact one is. The pharisee appeared before God and said, "Thank you God that I am not as other men. Especially like this publican." He could not recongnize his need. God can help anyone who recognizes their need, as the publican pointed out, "God be merciful to me a sinner." He walked away justified. God is the God who justifies the ungodly.

The Spirit of Prophesy says regarding the man who prayed, "I believe, Help Thou mine unbelief" that we can never perish while we pray this prayer, never. If we recognize our need for help, the Lord will save us. But if we think we are OK when we're not, then how can the Lord help us?