Mike.

You wrote:

When we are connected to Christ we do not and cannot commit a known sin. in Christ we do not want to sin, we do not have to sin, and we do not sin. Without Him all we can do is sin.

Unquote.


How to be “in Christ?”

I can understand that Christ is “in us” by his Spirit, controlling our will and do when we let him. But even so, I can sin, if I want, for I have the liberty to do that. But it is hard for me to understand, how I can be “in Christ?” And what benefits for me when I am in him? If I am in Him, doesn’t his righteousness cover my unrighteousness? Making a sinless perfect life has no meaning.

In His love

James S

But how can you have victory over sin if you go along with Mike's view? There is no victory... because there's no battle. According to him, if you're converted, you can not sin anymore. So, the fight is gone. You are a perfect, finished product at once and are beyond struggling and becoming. You are already there: Perfect.

Victory is a hollow word when you have simply been lifted by the collar and swooshed over the battleground. There is a place in EGW writings where she says that the life of the Christian is a "battle and a march". That's after becoming a converted, dedicated SDA. But the trouble with Mike's theory is that you should see thousands of Christians out there who absolutely NEVER do one thing wrong in life...unless he thinks he is the only one.

Let's say someone commits his life to God at age 16, which many SDA have. From that day on, Those people never have said a bad word, never had a selfish thought, never made a wrong choice, never forgot a birthday, never spent one foolish dime, and never neglected to always do the perfect way with their wife, or husband.

But have any of us actually known such a perfect human being? I think that's why some of us have issues with Brother Mike. None of us have ever known a faultless, sinless person. For even if you admired someone as a great, upstanding SDA minister, or deacon, or what, you begin to see they are quite human after knowing them a few years. Consider even the august leaders of the SDA church, now or in history. Read their biographys...you will find faults and errors aplenty, to their dieing day, even tho converted earnest servants of God, that God loved and approved of in general.

What about moses? What about Jacob? What about EGW herself? Their biographies all point to things they did wrong after they were converted. They lost Mike's technical "connection" quite a few times after siding with God.

Yes, it's back to the technical, semantic "what if's" again. What if Moses had not smote the rock for water instead of speaking to it? What if Jacob had never tried to cheat Esau out of the birthright? What if EGW had never gotten the momentary pride that caused the death of her baby? Well, Mike may be correct in his view of "keeping connected". Only trouble is, there is no one who has in the past, nor probably will in the future, which is why we need GRACE. In Mikes theology, righteousness-by-faith means that "if only" you are 100% faithful to always stay connected, you can not sin. In our world, the real world, righteousness-by-faith means that when we are faithful to confess our sins, Christ is faithful to forgive us our sins... and help.

If Mike were living near me and going to my church, I would assume he would get to know each church member. And while he is sitting in his pew he will be saying to himself things like this with each and every one..."Hummm, I see that Mrs.so-and-so has some eyebrow pencil on today. I just know she isn't converted and God is not in her life! Or, "I see Mr.so-and-so is snappy with his wife today..I know for sure the Holy Spirit isn't in him! Well, maybe Mike wouldn't do that because he is "sinless". But I might, and so would other people who are human who believe the way Mike does about conversion. How could you think otherwise when you are sure that true Christians never do anything wrong! If we believed like Mike does, it wouldn't be hard at all to pick out who isn't a true christian in the church we go to...just look around and see who has never done, never does, anything wrong in life. Pity...we wouldn't find a single converted person in the church...not even Mike!

James, the biblical motiff "in Christ" is not an easy concept to grasp, is it? I usually think in concrete terms, and metaphors like "abide in me" are more abstract and, therefore, not as easy for me to wrap my mind around. Abiding in Jesus, like a branch abiding on the vine, or being connected to Jesus, like an electric trolley car being connected to the power line, are word pictures that are designed to help us understand how we are supposed to abide in Christ, just like He used to abide in the Father, when He was walking this world as our substitute and example.

But sometimes these symbolic representations are lost upon us. And I suspect that's why certain aspects of salvation are just too mysterious for us to totally comprehend right now. Some things are easier to experience than they are to explain in words. Do you know what I mean? Whatever it means to "abide" in Christ, whether we can articulate it or not, one thing is true - the results are awesome, if not miraculous. Even the tangible fruits of salvation (i.e., faith, works, holiness, obedience, righteousness), even these things are easier to experience than they are to put down in words.

Restin, that was quite a commentary. I wish we knew each other personally, though I suspect you don't feel the same way right now, because I'm pretty sure we would be good friends. I'm not at all like the mean spirited person you described. You can ask my wife, my kids, and any one of my friends. I do not look around me and try to second guess who is right with God and who isn't. That would bore me to tears. I normally see life through rose colored glasses. I live a charmed life, with a charming wife, charming children, and a charming outdoor ministry.

Also, I agree with you that most born again believers slip in and out of sin with amazing regularity - my self included. Did you hear me? I said, my self included. I have never said anything that would give the impression life is anything but a battle and a march. I know that from experience, just like you and everyone else knows it. So, please, please, please stop demonizing me.

You said it yourself, so long as we are abiding in Jesus we cannot commit a known sin. Which is true. That's exactly what it says in the Bible. Does that mean we cannot stop abiding in Jesus and revert back to our sinful ways? Of course not. We are always free to sin, if we want to, but no one who is truly born again really wants to sin. So, we shouldn't go around doubting the meaning of the promises of God, or twisting them to mean something they don't say. Instead we should direct all of our energy toward learning how to stay connected to Jesus, so that whenever we're tempted to be unChristlike we choose rather to abide in the love of Jesus.

There are many positive and uplifting things we can do to strengthen our ability and willingness to keep our eyes on Jesus, so that when temptation comes our way, instead of falling headlong into sin, we automatically turn to Jesus for help in our time of need. But looking around at other faulty brothers and sisters, who cannot seem to get it right, and fail even more often than we do, is no way to fortify our minds against the snares of Satan.

Can you think of anything else we can do to improve our chances of keeping our eyes of Jesus whenever we're tempted to be unChristlike, so that we can come away more than conquerors, unto the honor and glory of God?

I'll put in my two cents.

I think the Bible uses many metaphors, and we make mistakes if we build complex theological systems on them. The metaphors are ways God uses to communicate spiritual truths. Our task it is to figure out what these spiritual truths are.

God wants His followers to follow Him because they love Him and admire His character. To the end of publishing His true character, He has given a revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. In Christ we see a picture of a God who is wonderful beyond comprehension. Paul alludes to this when he prays, "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us (Eph. 3:16-20).

In a legal sense the whole human race is "in Christ." It is because we are in Christ that we live physically even though we are sinners. The way the Spirit of Prophesy puts it is "to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life" and "Christ, by His wonderful life in giving His life, restored the whole race of men to favor with God."

In an experiential sense we become "in Christ" when we believe in Him; when we appreciate the cost of our salvation; when we appreciate the picture of God Jesus Christ has painted; when we are moved to unite our allegiance to Him, to learn of Him, to behold Him, we are "in Christ."

I suppose we would be friends if we were neighbors, Mike, for I can tell you are a good man and trying your best in life.I do really believe that from being around here a long time. I try to be decent too and a good neighbor. But i wish so much that you were my neighbor so I could take advantage of your being such a nice guy...a lot better than my partially connected, semi-converted neighbors who pretend to be oh so busy when my car needs new brakes, or my house needs painted, and I don't have any money.

But I have these issues with you because of your emphasis on the formal, deductive logic of Biblical text rather than upon the souls of human beings. It may be, as you say, a formal truth that people will not sin as long as they sustain continuous connection with Christ. But who does, and who can...and maybe some of us aren't even ready to do the Jesus thing 100% of every minute of every day.
The problem is that you remind me of certain teachers I had in the SDA school I attended from first grade thru 12th, graduating from Forest Lake Academy in Florida. Some teachers put so much emphasis on "sinning not" that many of us young people, with our energy, surging hormones, and a whole new world to explore, just couldn't keep our "connectedness" without unraveling from time to time. I thought I was converted ..only to give in (more times than I want to admit) and let myself do or think something bad. So, my conversion must have meant nothing. I didn't realize then that the text "Be ye perfect" is a goal God desires for us, not a threat. To me, "Be ye perfect" meant I had better durned well have attained it by the time God came to my name on His check list that day, or else I was DEADSVILLE, with my feet already slipping into the Lake of Fire, as of that moment.

So what did I do when I was a young SDA fresh out of school? I did just what about 80% of the youth in SDA schools do. I left the church as well as the school. I knew my conversion was a useless phoney, when perfection is the criteria. So I, like most the kids in my class, became your typical prodigal daughters and sons who give up on SDA perfectionism. I went to a worldly university, got steeped in the New Age stuff and free love, and the whole works.I did it as bad as the others, and ended up making all the terrible mistakes people do who run away from God, live the worldly lifestyle, and end up on the bottom rung of the pit.

So, maybe you can see, Bro Mike, how it bothers me when people who are SDA go around telling people what perfect angels they must show everybody they are if they are genuine SDA. I know people need to be trying, and trying hard. We must be commandment keepers as well as talkers, and we should all be in the active stages of spiritual maturing

Gladly, I see by your last post, Mike, that you do have a more normal balance about sinners when someone really pins you down. You have admittd that SDA do actually fall a little bit from time to time, even tho converted. So, it seems that perhaps it's more a matter of emphasis...the difference between my view and yours. Your thing is to emphasize the "always connected" aspect with it's resultant perfect life; while someone else's emphasis might be to tell of the mercy of Jesus when human beings lose their connection a bit. I guess I can live with that. But I just wish there would be more people who tell of the mercy side of Christianity for erring humans... so less people will be subjected to the despair i felt and end up doing what I did. (sigh) I guess I'm still not going to be saved...I lost my "connection" today and gossiped about my neighbor 3 houses down who doesn't cut his grass often enough.

Ahhhh, that now that felt good, Restin. Thanx for being so honest, so open. Now I know we would make great neighbors. Hey, I've got a great idea, when we get to heaven, we can hook up with a duplex on the lake, with awesome views of the mountains, and swap stories. I'd like that. Of course, my favorite story to tell is how my wife and I met each other, and how we fell in love.

Yeah, I know what you mean about mercy. I grew up in the 70's (yeah, yeah, I know, I'm just a kid), and people were all about love and mercy, so the teachers at the academy I attended in Nebraska (Platte Valley) never really even mentioned the law or obedience. More boys and girls were sent home for drugs and pregnancy than I'd like to remember. Fortunately, nothing like that happened to me. My problems were more systemic - pride and conceit.

One of the main reasons I'm so excited about the truth regarding rebirth and perfection, you know, staying connected to Jesus and all that good stuff, is because I went through a period in my life where I was sick and tired of being impatient all of the time. Every little stupid thing would trigger a barrage of fits that made everyone around me absolutely miserable. One day my daughter, my sweet, precious little lady, my darling princess, asked me, Daddy, why do you hate me?

As you can imagine, I was devastated, I mean totally and thoroughly devastated. It turned my whole world upside down. Truthfully, I have never been the same since, and that was 15 years ago. I purposed in my heart that I was going to do whatever it took to overcome my wicked, wicked, wicked impatience problem. That’s when I began to realize that my theology was to blame, and not my God. When I started taking God at His word, a brand new world opened before my very eyes. It was like I was reading the Bible for the first time in my life.

When it finally dawned on me that God means exactly what it says in the Bible, I chose to claim His promises, and I fully expected Him to answer my prayers. And, miracle of all miracles, He did. Restin, I cannot tell you how happy it made me, and how happy it made everyone else in my family. At first they were suspicious. They kept wondering what happened to me. But eventually they accepted the change, and were glad for it.

One day I overheard a conversation between my daughter and her best friend. It went something like this. “Angel, won’t your father get upset if you don’t ask him first?” Her answer still brings tears to my eyes. “No,” she said, “My father doesn’t get upset like that anymore. He loves me too much. I’m his precious princess.” Restin, can you imagine what that did for me? Yeah, I’m very excited about what I discovered concerning rebirth and victory in Jesus.

Okay, here’s more on mercy. I realize I cannot tell that story without also going on to say that there are still times when I blow it. But I never blow it big time. Not any more. The thought of disappointing my family or friends, especially Jesus, super motivates me to spend a lot of time in prayer, a lot of time meditating on the love of God, a lot of time fellowshipping with Jesus. There are many reasons why I do this, some better than others, but the main reason is so I can love my loved ones the way Jesus loves them. And being patient is a very good way to demonstrate my love for them.

When I do blow it, dear Jesus, you know I hate it with a perfect hatred. That look in my wife’s eyes, that look, oh man, it hurts me terribly. I immediately apologize, an apology that comes from somewhere deep down in my heart, a place where the love of Jesus is richer than fine gold. Of course, my wife is quick to forgive me, we hug, and then I resolve within myself to never, never, never hurt her again. And Jesus honors my prayer.

The difference now, since learning the truth about victory, about abiding in Jesus, is that I no longer make up excuses for my failures. I used to say things like, “Well, so what. I’m only human, nobody is perfect. What did you expect? I’m a diamond in the ruff, Jesus isn’t finished with me yet. Besides, only the 144,000 will completely overcome sin, and I’m certainly not one of them, and neither are you.” Yuk!!! Can you imagine such a pig?

Now I know there’s no excuse for sinning, for being impatient, or whatever. I totally believe and expect God to fulfill His promises in and through me. And, so long as I do not resist His will or frustrate His grace, I am more than a conqueror – in Christ. And that suits me just fine. My wife too. Yes, it’s a battle and a march. Keeping my eyes on Jesus sometimes stretches every nerve and fiber in my being, but staying connected to Jesus is more than worth it. No amount of suffering can convince me that letting go would be better.

Mike

These personal testimonies did a better job of explaining your point than all the previous theology used. Thanks.

/Thomas

That was a mighty fine post, Mike. It does help to know where someone is coming from. And I do think we will meet in the new earth... many of us who attend this SDA forum. I want my own rambling indoor-outdoor million dollar log house in my own Rock Springs park (a place here in Florida) And I will no longer have arthritis so bad i can't ride a horse anymore or do gymnastics like I used to. I'm 65 now and beginning to see my body as a prison instead of a facilitator.

I also had issues with impatience as I was a high energy person, a high achiever, and have several strong talents. I looked down on others and could see no excuse for them to be careless and slackers. I always was a writer, even in highschool where I was an editor of the newsletter. But when I read how I wrote then as compared to now, my premises are so different than then. God dealt with me by letting me go through the fires of affliction big time. It took a horrible dragging thru the belly of the beast to make even a dent in my arrogance. I came out of it with much more understanding and patience for people who aren't always hoeing a straight line as good as mine...in the academic, secular realm anyway. In the moral realm I used all my energy and boldness to get all the pleasure I could, since I had given up on God and his rules.

I think it's good for people like you to hold up a high standard, as long as you attend to the mercy side for weak human nature as well as the righteousness side. Someone needs to because some of us are a bit TOO forgiving, and I do have to remind myself to not get like Aaron who evoked God's wrath for letting the children of Israel get away with idolatry.

I gather from your real life explanations that you DO a bit better than you talk. To hear your reasonings one would think you have lived in the church house itself all your life and had never been let off your leash long enough to go anywhere or do anything in the real world. But i see it isn't quite that bad. You have had moral issues to struggle with similar to the rest of us, and have had to fall upon the mercy of God even as we do from time to time. (actually every day for most of us, and for me)
We come to people with different emphasis on issues. Which is okay. I think it was Apostle Paul who discussed that variety of spiritual emphasis in one of his letters (can't recall exactly which chapter) But I just think we all need to try to stay in a balance between opposites, myself included.