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Re: plagues [Re: Green Cochoa] #115408
07/04/09 02:57 AM
07/04/09 02:57 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
MM:My studies have led me to conclude that literal holy angels will cause the forces of nature to cause death and devastation. It is also evident in the SOP that evil angels will be permitted to wreak havoc as well.


I find this to be a great weakness in this position. There's no way of knowing if the death and destruction comes about by means of holy or wicked angels. If you can't tell the difference between holy actions and unholy ones, to me, that's a problem.

Quote:
MM:Tom believes Jesus demonstrated/revealed everything there is to know about the God of the OT.


I haven't narrowed it in this way. I've simply said what the SOP said, which is that all that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son ("can know of God," being a superset of "needs to know of God," includes it).

Of course God is the God of the OT, but I believe thinking of things in this way is a problem. It is better, IMO, to think of God as simply God. Jesus Christ in the flesh, the Word made flesh, revealed God perfectly. That's a simple, and accurate, way of putting it.

Or, we can put things in His words: "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Rosangela] #115409
07/04/09 02:59 AM
07/04/09 02:59 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Jesus Christ said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." The SOP says that all that man needs to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed in the life and character of His Son.

But you have to consider the whole picture. This includes, for instance, the driving of the moneychangers from the temple, which shows that God sometimes manifests His wrath actively (not just passively, "abandoning" the sinner). As I said once, "God is love" is not the same as "God is nice" ("Deus é bonzinho"). The Christ you portray to me is one who will not judge men, one who will not make any difference between righteous and wicked on the Day of Judgment, but one who will be smiling to all, without showing in His countenance any abhorrence for sin.
yes, that idea that others are getting, that picture of what tom is saying, has been coming through loud and clear and it puzzles me.
Quote:
This includes, for instance, the driving of the moneychangers from the temple, which shows that God sometimes manifests His wrath actively (not just passively, "abandoning" the sinner).
but notice how He does it.
Quote:
With searching glance, Christ takes in the scene before Him as He stands upon the steps of the temple court. With prophetic eye He looks into futurity, and sees not only years, but centuries and ages. He sees how priests and rulers will turn the needy from their right, and forbid that the gospel shall be preached to the poor. He sees how the love of God will be concealed from sinners, and men will make merchandise of His grace. As He beholds the scene, indignation, authority, and power are expressed in His countenance. The attention of the people is attracted to Him. The eyes of those engaged in their unholy traffic are riveted upon His face. They cannot withdraw their gaze. They feel that this Man reads their inmost thoughts, and discovers their hidden motives. Some attempt to conceal their faces, as if their evil deeds were written upon their countenances, to be scanned by those searching eyes. {DA 157.4}
The confusion is hushed. The sound of traffic and bargaining has ceased. The silence becomes painful. A sense of awe overpowers the assembly. It is as if they were arraigned before the tribunal of God to answer for their deeds. Looking upon Christ, they behold divinity flash through the garb of humanity. The Majesty of heaven stands as the Judge will stand at the last day,--not now encircled with the glory that will then attend Him, but with the same power to read the soul. His eye sweeps over the multitude, taking in every individual. His form seems to rise above them in commanding dignity, and a divine light illuminates His countenance. He speaks, and His clear, ringing voice--the same that upon Mount Sinai proclaimed the law that priests and rulers are transgressing--is heard echoing through the arches of the temple: "Take these things hence; make not My Father's house an house of merchandise." {DA 158.1}
Slowly descending the steps, and raising the scourge of cords gathered up on entering the enclosure, He bids the bargaining company depart from the precincts of the temple. With a zeal and severity He has never before manifested, He overthrows the tables of the money-changers. The coin falls, ringing sharply upon the marble pavement. None presume to question His authority. None dare stop to gather up their ill-gotten gain. Jesus does not smite them with the whip of cords, but in His hand that simple scourge seems terrible as a flaming sword. Officers of the temple, speculating priests, brokers and cattle traders, with their sheep and oxen, rush from the place, with the one thought of escaping from the condemnation of His presence. {DA 158.2}
A panic sweeps over the multitude, who feel the overshadowing of His divinity. Cries of terror escape from hundreds of blanched lips. Even the disciples tremble. They are awestruck by the words and manner of Jesus, so unlike His usual demeanor. They remember that it is written of Him, "The zeal of Thine house hath eaten Me up." Psalm 69:9. Soon the tumultuous throng with their merchandise are far removed from the temple of the Lord. The courts are free from unholy traffic, and a deep silence and solemnity settles upon the scene of confusion.The presence of the Lord, that of old sanctified the mount, has now made sacred the temple reared in His honor. {DA 158.3}
and how Jesus felt about it.
Quote:
Overpowered with terror, the priests and rulers had fled from the temple court, and from the searching glance that read their hearts....Christ looked upon the fleeing men with yearning pity for their fear, and their ignorance of what constituted true worship. In this scene He saw symbolized the dispersion of the whole Jewish nation for their wickedness and impenitence. {DA 162.1}
and why did they run?
Quote:
And why did the priests flee from the temple? Why did they not stand their ground? He who commanded them to go was a carpenter's son, a poor Galilean, without earthly rank or power. Why did they not resist Him? Why did they leave the gain so ill acquired, and flee at the command of One whose outward appearance was so humble? {DA 162.2}
Christ spoke with the authority of a king, and in His appearance, and in the tones of His voice, there was that which they had no power to resist. At the word of command they realized, as they had never realized before, their true position as hypocrites and robbers. When divinity flashed through humanity, not only did they see indignation on Christ's countenance; they realized the import of His words. They felt as if before the throne of the eternal Judge, with their sentence passed on them for time and for eternity. ...{DA 162.3}
why did these remain behind, why didnt they run, also?
Quote:
...When they fled, the poor remained behind; and these were now looking to Jesus, whose countenance expressed His love and sympathy. With tears in His eyes, He said to the trembling ones around Him: Fear not; I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify Me. For this cause came I into the world. {DA 162.5}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #115410
07/04/09 03:20 AM
07/04/09 03:20 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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i repost this and it is not isolated.
Christ came to this world to reveal the Father, to give to mankind a true knowledge of God. He came to manifest the love of God. Without a knowledge of God, humanity would be eternally lost. Without divine help, men and women would sink lower and lower. Life and power must be imparted by him who made the world. {YI, September 13, 1900 par. 1}
The promise made in Eden,--the seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head,--was the promise of the Son of God, through whose power alone could the counsel of God be fulfilled and the knowledge of God be imparted. {YI, September 13, 1900 par. 2}

as i say there are many and we all have read them but they dont seem to have registered to some of us.

Christ alone was able to represent the Deity. He who had been in the presence of the Father from the beginning, He who was the express image of the invisible God, was alone sufficient to accomplish this work. No verbal description could reveal God to the world. Through a life of purity, a life of perfect trust and submission to the will of God, a life of humiliation such as even the highest seraph in heaven would have shrunk from, God Himself must be revealed to humanity. In order to do this, our Saviour clothed His divinity with humanity. He employed the human faculties, for only by adopting these could He be comprehended by humanity. Only humanity could reach humanity. He lived out the character of God through the human body which God had prepared for Him. He blessed the world by living out in human flesh the life of God, thus showing that He had the power to unite humanity to divinity (RH June 25, 1895). {7BC 924.6}

there are more.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: Green Cochoa] #115412
07/04/09 04:02 AM
07/04/09 04:02 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:Jesus Christ said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." The SOP says that all that man needs to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed in the life and character of His Son.

R:But you have to consider the whole picture.


Considering Christ is the whole picture.

Quote:
R:This includes, for instance, the driving of the moneychangers from the temple, which shows that God sometimes manifests His wrath actively (not just passively, "abandoning" the sinner).


"For instance"? That's an odd way of putting it. As if there are so many examples of Christ's acting violently, that one could easily pick one at random.

There are only two incidents in all of the 100 pages or so in the Gospels which could even be misconstrued as Christ's acting violently: His overturning the tables of the money-changers and the cursing of the fig tree. That's it. The "for instance" here is very out of place.

Quote:
R:As I said once, "God is love" is not the same as "God is nice" ("Deus é bonzinho").


Love is kind. ("chresteuomai" in the Greek; 1 Cor. 13:4).

Quote:
chresteuomai: to show oneself useful, i.e. act benevolently -- be kind. (http://biblelexicon.org/1_corinthians/13-4.htm)


Quote:
R:The Christ you portray to me is one who will not judge men, one who will not make any difference between righteous and wicked on the Day of Judgment, but one who will be smiling to all, without showing in His countenance any abhorrence for sin.


The great error here, IMO, is to think that one must act violently to judge, or to show abhorrence for sin. Violence is not necessary whatsoever for these things.

To be fair, I've never in the least suggested that God will not judge, or that His countenance would not show abhorrence for sin. I've only argued that He does not act violently. I don't believe it is necessary to be violent to either judge sinners, or express abhorrence of sin.

Quote:
R:God manifests His wrath actively because He is love - and love cannot let His creatures think that sin is something trivial.


Yes, of course. This is well stated, and is exactly the issue.

Sin is what causes people to act violently. Because of sin, people hurt and kill each other, as does Satan, and those who follow his principles, and God, of course, hates that, because He loves those who are being acted violently against.

Sin is not something trivial because its inevitable result is death. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He certainly doesn't cause it.

Quote:
R:Yes, God shows, both to those who reject Him, and to those of future generations who must be warned, that sin is offensive in His sight, and that He won't permit it to go on forever, and that those who reject His grace and disregard His warnings cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely to live in sin.


The problem here is that sin is not innocuous. If sin were simply something that God found offensive, then it would be necessary for Him to take action to prevent Himself from being offended. But this is a rather selfish view of God to take, IMO, and it makes short shrift of the destruction which sin wreaks.

If one understands that sin is destructive, it is not necessary for one to attribute to God the necessity to cut short the lives of those who practice it. This is simply not recognizing all that God does to protect us from the power of sin. God does so by keeping us alive (our "organisms"), by preventing the power of sin to destroy us by way of natural disasters, by saving us from micro-organisms, from bio-weapons, from nuclear weapons, from radiation, from toxins, from Satan's attacks. There are thousands of things that God preserves us from, of which we are ignorant. But our ignorance does not make things threats any less real, nor His power less which He continually exercises to protect us.

It is simply not necessary for God to act violently or to use force in order to kill or punish those who choose to sin. This view of things both underestimates that power of sin, and misapprehends the principles by which God runs His government.

Quote:
God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)


Quote:
The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government... (DA 22)


Quote:
R:This is the message conveyed by the episodes of the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the plagues of Egypt.


Not if you think this message is communicated by God's using force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government.

Quote:
R:Of course God loves those who will be lost, and suffers for them - but He loves His creatures - all of them - too much to not make His abhorrence of sin manifest to the universe.


He manifests His abhorrence of sin by making known the horror it causes. He doesn't need to act violently to do this.

Please consider the quote following (next post, to keep this one from being too long).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #115413
07/04/09 04:03 AM
07/04/09 04:03 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
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And then there is the wrath of God that you read about all through the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. I want to turn and read a text on this point. We can only understand these things that are brought to view in the Bible, when we see them in the light and the grace of the revelation of God. The scripture I will read is found in 2Cor.3:12-16: "Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished."

God had many things to show to them that they could not bear; and as they could not see the true glory as it was, he had to vail it, so they could take it. "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." And, brethren, if we want to understand what God has said all through this Book, we want to turn to him, and we will understand all.

Was there ever a being in this world that hated sin as Christ hates it? - No. Was there ever a being who loved the sinner as Christ loved him? - No. Suppose I hate a man, and somebody is trying to do that man an injury, and I see it, and do not try to prevent it. Do I care whether that man is injured or not? - No; I am rather glad of it. But suppose I love that man, and here is a man that is trying to thrust a dagger into him and kill him. Now the measure of my hatred for that deed is the measure of my love for that man. I am liable to hate the man that is doing the deed, too. But I hate the deed, anyway. Now, brethren, the measure of God's hatred for sin, is the measure of his love for the sinner.

Sin has been lurking with murderous intent to take the life of every soul. God's wrath is kindled against the sin. Is that wrath going to be appeased in any way? O if it were, it would be a bad thing for us. That wrath of God against sin is to burn on until it consumes every bit of sin in this universe. Just as long as God loves the sinner, he will hate the sin, and his wrath against the sin will burn; and, thank God! that wrath against sin is going to burn, unchanged, until the universe is clean. (George Fifield; Sermon #1, 1897 GCB)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #115414
07/04/09 05:25 AM
07/04/09 05:25 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Tom,

Take the statements of Mrs. White in context.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. {DA 22.1}


Is she talking about punishments here? judgments? Not at all.

Your application of the term "force" and her usage of the term in this context, seem to be two different things.

God is Commander in Chief of the Universe. He has exercised "force" many times. Satan was "cast out" of Heaven. Satan was "not allowed" to bring fire on Mount Carmel, even though Satan wanted very much to do this. Was this not "force?" When Satan is bound to the earth for 1000 years, will this be by Satan's own choice? or will it be enforced by Heaven against his will?

The point is this, God does not use force to make us choose something that we do not want. God may set limits upon our actions, by force, or He may punish us, against our will, but He will never force against your freedom of choice.

God's plagues will never be caused by people or by the angels of hell against themselves. They may be "asking for them" via their behavior and their own free choices (i.e. deserving them), but they will not say to themselves, "Yay! Let's cause these plagues for ourselves!" smile No, indeed. God has reserved His justice for just such a time, and it will be by God's choosing and on His terms that the final plagues will fall.

When the final plagues fall, God will have already stood up and declared "It is finished." Probation is closed. Earthlings no longer have the option of making a choice for or against God's government. The plagues, therefore, are not sent to convert them....no.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Satan had succeeded so well in deceiving the angels of God and in ruining noble Adam that he thought he should be successful in overcoming Christ in His humiliation. He looked with pleased exultation upon the result of his temptations, and the increase of sin in the continued transgression of God's law for more than four thousand years. He had worked the ruin of our first parents, and brought sin and death into the world, and led to ruin multitudes of all ages, countries, and classes. By his [Satan's] power he had controlled cities and nations until their sin provoked the wrath of God to destroy them by fire, water, earthquakes, sword, famine, and pestilence.... {Con 34.2}

I am bidden to declare the message that cities full of transgression, and sinful in the extreme, will be destroyed by earthquakes, by fire, by flood. All the world will be warned that there is a God who will display His authority as God. His unseen agencies will cause destruction, devastation, and death. All the accumulated riches will be as nothingness. . . . {CL 7.4}


I would not class the devil or his followers as "God's agencies." In fact, that would be the epitome of God using "force" if He were to command the devil against his will to cause the destruction. When God asks His own to do it, they obey of their own will out of love to Him. Those who belong to Christ are Christlike, and do not need to be "forced" to do His biddings.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #115415
07/04/09 06:13 AM
07/04/09 06:13 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
No verbal description could reveal God to the world.

Isn't the Bible a "verbal description" of God? Furthermore, did Mark and Luke personally walk with Jesus, or did they write their books based on a "verbal description" they got from someone else?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: plagues [Re: asygo] #115416
07/04/09 06:28 AM
07/04/09 06:28 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Teresa,

I agree, that a "verbal description" without a "visual evidence" would have been powerless to communicate to us adequately.

I do not accept Christ's human-flesh advent to be the first advent, despite our language to the contrary--like "World War I" was also not the first war in this world. Christ had come to earth many times prior, even walking and talking with people: Adam and Eve, Enoch, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua...to name a few who spoke with God personally.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (Hebrews 1:1, KJV)


When God showed Himself to these people, it was more than just "verbal" communication. Moses actually got to see God's backside--which was certainly a more glorious glimpse of Divinity than Jesus revealed, for Jesus hid His divinity so that He could be as one of us. Yet He showed us what God was like in His actions. The same "actions" were apparent throughout times past as God sheltered, protected, delivered, taught, and blessed His people.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: plagues [Re: Green Cochoa] #115417
07/04/09 06:45 AM
07/04/09 06:45 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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hmmm, well gentlemen, since ellen white always makes the same point in context to Christs birth and life here on earth i take it to mean exactly what i read it to say.

it never dawned on me it could be made to say pre-incarnate also. :0

did either one of you read those two quotes in context to see if they backed your claims? or any of the other times she says essentially the same thing?

Quote:
gc: Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
and goes on to say: Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

but i guess we pick and choose and twist and turn what doesnt go in the direction we want it to.

i just cant express how disappointed i am!! how amazed! i thought so much better.........



apparently your arguments make a lot of sense to you as brs arguments do to him....i wont say what im seeing.

sorry, gentlemen, this is reminding me of the "dreams" threads and the responses by a certain individual. i see no reason to continue here, either. frown


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: asygo] #115418
07/04/09 07:00 AM
07/04/09 07:00 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: teresaq
No verbal description could reveal God to the world.

Isn't the Bible a "verbal description" of God? Furthermore, did Mark and Luke personally walk with Jesus, or did they write their books based on a "verbal description" they got from someone else?
thats what the messenger of the Lord said. was she mistaken?
Quote:
No verbal description could reveal God to the world. Through a life of purity, a life of perfect trust and submission to the will of God, a life of humiliation such as even the highest seraph in heaven would have shrunk from, God Himself must be revealed to humanity. (RH June 25, 1895). {7BC 924.6}
im not inclined to dispute it or quibble.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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