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Re: plagues
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#115799
07/11/09 12:52 AM
07/11/09 12:52 AM
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In this particular case, the mayor who was less guilty would be the mayor who opened up the floodgates.
This is because by opening the floodgates he would have a chance to save some, as doing so might prevent the entire dam from bursting, and the water coming out would be less overall than if the dam should burst.
This is, of course, exactly what God does. He "permits" some to be destroyed (by killing them, e.g. Sodom, the Egyptians, etc.) in order to save others. Yes, that's precisely what I think.
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#115800
07/11/09 01:13 AM
07/11/09 01:13 AM
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M: Jesus earned the right on the cross to judge, punish, and destroy sinners. Ellen White wrote:
Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave His life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute; He died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. He suffered the full penalty of a broken law for the whole world. This He did, not that men might continue in transgression, but that they might return to their loyalty and keep God's commandments and His law as the apple of their eye. {TM 134.1}
K: Could you indicate where in the quote you gave gives your conclusion about earning "the right on the cross to judge, punish, and destroy sinners"? The only thing I find concerns the devil - the rest talks about sinners returning to God.
So, I'm a little loss as to your conclusion. Whatever applies to evil angels at the end of time also applies to unrepentant sinners so far as punishment for sin is concerned. Jesus said: Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115801
07/11/09 01:16 AM
07/11/09 01:16 AM
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Regarding #115767, inspiration often attributes to God that which he permits.
The flood waters were caused primarily by waters under the earth's crust which erupted into the atmosphere. This could only happen if they were under great pressure. God could simply have stopped restraining these waters from erupting.
Notice that there is fire under the earth's crust now, and eventually the earth will become a lake of fire. The earth's crust is extremely thin. It makes sense that God is taking action to protect us from fire, as earlier He took action to prevent us from water. Tom, where does it say in the Bible or the SOP that God had to work to prevent pent up water in the bowels of the earth from naturally bursting forth and causing a worldwide flood killing everyone and everything in the process?
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115803
07/11/09 01:33 AM
07/11/09 01:33 AM
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"God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}
M: Sounds to me like she is saying, yes, God does "use His enemies" to accomplish His purposes.
T: This sounds identical to me to GC 35, 36. Yes, it does. That is, God withdrew His protection and permitted evils angels to use Roman soldiers to cause death and destruction. The question is - Did the evil angels have a choice in the matter? Could they have chosen to influence the Roman soldiers to walk away and leave the Jews to themselves? Or, were they (evil angels) required to influence them (soldiers) to do what they did? T: This is easy. Of course not. God wants good things to happen. Even for His enemies, God desires nothing but good things.... Of course God didn't want bad things to happen. Satan did.
A: So did God want Satan to develop and display his principles?
T: God would have preferred that Satan repent. God offered him pardon again and again on the condition of repentance and submission. What is at stake when God withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature or evil men or evil angels to cause death and destruction? What if nothing happened and everything continued as is? Would it prove that the inhabitants of the earth are not dependent upon God for the peace and protection they joy? A: When God removes His protection, is it possible that nothing bad happens? IOW, is God surprised that something bad happens when He removes His protection?
T: These are two different questions, it seems to me. To answer the second one, why would God be surprised in such a case? This question doesn't make sense to me.
In answer to the first one, "The Great Controversy" speaks of how Satan sometimes blesses his followers to further his purposes, so things can happen to a person which seem to be good (fame, riches, etc.) even though God has removed His protection from them. Also, bear in mind (as pointed out earlier in an SOP statement from Teresa) that when God removes His protection, it's not a carte blanche thing (if it were, everyone would die) but done selectively; that is, He removes His protection is some specific area or areas (Job also makes this clear). If God isn't surprised when death and destruction do not happen when He withdraws His protection what are we to believe about it - Are the forces of nature or evil men or evil angels free to do as they please in spite of what God does or doesn't do? BTW, do you know of an inspired quote where it says God withdrew His protection and nothing bad happened? Also, what would have happened had the evil angels chose to bless Job instead of mete out the death and destruction God was willing to permit?
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#115804
07/11/09 01:51 AM
07/11/09 01:51 AM
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M: Where does it say God restrained Herod or those people from killing Jesus? I read where Jesus escaped such attempts but not where such people were restrained.
K: GC pg 35 seems to come to mind. But, you're right she doesn't specifically say "restrained Herod". Why do you need a specific statement? The Bible doesn't say we shouldn't smoke. So should we? Or should we look at underlying principles. What in GC 35 makes you think God restrained (insert any synonym you wish) Herod from killing Jesus? BTW, I am a firm believer in applying biblical principles to issues not specifically addressed in the Bible. K: Have you searched for the word, "restraining" in Ellen White's writings? Yes, for example: If you choose to throw off the sacred, restraining influence of the truth, Satan will lead you captive at his will. You will be in danger of giving scope to your appetites and passions, giving loose rein to lusts, to evil and abominable desires. {CC 26.4} The holiness that God's word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. {AA 532.1} Occasions of indulgence such as are pictured in the first chapter of Esther, do not glorify God. But the Lord accomplishes His will through men who are nevertheless misleading others. If God did not stretch forth His restraining hand, strange presentations would be seen. But God impresses human minds to accomplish His purpose, even though the one used continues to follow wrong practices. And the Lord works out His plans through men who do not acknowledge His lessons of wisdom. In His hand is the heart of every earthly ruler, to turn whithersoever He will, as He turneth the waters of the river. {CC 243.6} We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} K: James came across sounding a little off the wall and twisting and contorting things about the Sabbath. Come to find out, he was highly motivated to support his choice in behavior.
I don't know, but do you see similar things as to what's going on with you taking a harsh or unloving view of God (fill in what you want as you have objected but never stated what your view of God is called)? What do you think your motivation is? I doubt it is profit as in Jame's case, and it may be something even hidden from you. Have you thought of searching to discover what motivates you for taking such a harsh view of God?
What if you find out that God doesn't punish and destroy people but permits them to separate from Him and the result is death? How would that make you feel? Your assumption is unkind, Kland. Please feel free not to assume something so repulsive. There is nothing harsh about my view of God.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115805
07/11/09 01:54 AM
07/11/09 01:54 AM
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(kland)What if you find out that God doesn't punish and destroy people but permits them to separate from Him and the result is death?How would that make you feel? Lately I've been thinking about this sort of thing. That is, what happens if we find out that God is different than we thought He was? Especially taking into account that by beholding we become changed. Tom, how does the following inspired quote make you feel? The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. Who will say God will not do what He says He will do? {LDE 241.3}
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#115806
07/11/09 01:58 AM
07/11/09 01:58 AM
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M: Jesus earned the right on the cross to judge, punish, and destroy sinners. Ellen White wrote:
Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave His life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute; He died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. He suffered the full penalty of a broken law for the whole world. This He did, not that men might continue in transgression, but that they might return to their loyalty and keep God's commandments and His law as the apple of their eye. {TM 134.1}
t: the point she is making is for those who believe the law was abolished at the cross. What does the underlined part above have to do with "those who believe the law was abolished at the cross"?
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#115807
07/11/09 02:04 AM
07/11/09 02:04 AM
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M: Ellen White wrote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. Who will say God will not do what He says He will do? --12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}
She says God drowned the antediluvians - not nature. Plus she says God can do it whereas it would be a sin for men to do it.
t: this is in the same manuscript and again it has to do with believing the law was done away with at the cross.
"God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true."{12MR 207.1}
she is not dealing with how God will "punish" here but that there will be results from their actions. we cannot think that we can break Gods law, or lower the standard to suit ourselves and still think we have a place in heaven. What does the underlined part above have to do with people thinking they can sin their way to heaven? Also, why was it okay for God to kill sinners and not Noah or Lot? Is this a double standard?
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#115808
07/11/09 02:15 AM
07/11/09 02:15 AM
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M: Yes, God permits death and destruction to arouse people to a sense of their need and danger. Do evil angels cooperate with God in His endeaver? Or, are they ignorant of what they are doing?
t: the quotes had to do with the plagues, which i didnt include. as for your questions, i see God as telling us what the evil angels will do.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
this, as well as the corresponding texts that go with it make it very clear whether it is God acting or "evil angels". [color:#3333FF]for those of that mindset, would these angels and satan be working in conjunction with God, here?
M: Verses 13-16 above are not directly related to what the sixth angel will do when he pours out the sixth vial.
And, yes, evil angels unwittingly fulfill the will and purpose of God in such cases. I suppose they are ignorant or hoping things will not play out according to God's plan. If they believed it would serve God's overall plan seems to me they wouldn't go along with it. The following passage goes along with the dynamics in Rev 16:13-16.
2 Thessalonians
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. M: Also, it should be noted that for every quote like this one there are corresponding quotes that say God causes death and destruction either Himself or through holy angels. In other words, He does not always withdraw His protection and allow evil angels to wreak havoc.
t: oh, ok, i see where you are coming from.
but yes, there are, just like this one, and if we did not have ellen white to point out the contradiction, or explanation, we would believe that God literally sent serpents into the camp.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
M: I don't see a significant difference between God sending serpents to bite them and not preventing the poison from killing them or allowing serpents in the area to bite them and not preventing the poison from killing them. Do you? If so, please explain why.
BTW, do you agree with the idea that there are times when God does not allow death and destruction through the "withdraw and permit principle"? Keep the following in mind:
Especially solemn is the apostle's statement regarding those who should refuse to receive "the love of the truth." "For this cause," he declared of all who should deliberately reject the messages of truth, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Men cannot with impunity reject the warnings that God in mercy sends them. From those who persist in turning from these warnings, God withdraws His Spirit, leaving them to the deceptions that they love. {AA 266.2}
The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation, and the Lord withdraws His protection, and leaves them to the mercy of the leader they have chosen. Satan will have power over those who have yielded themselves to his control, and he will plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {Mar 275.2}
God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3} t: we seem to be at an impasse so keeping in mind the counsel we are given concerning discussions and debates, i withdraw.  Like you I am not interested in debates. That's why I asked you questions. It is my goal to understand what you believe about the plagues. I realize you are in study mode but sometimes you say things that sound like you've already made up your mind about certain aspects. For instance, I gather from what you've written so far that you are adamantly opposed to the idea God has done things or ever will do something that directly resulted in sinners suffering or dying. You seem to be of the opinion that things like the flood and sodom were definitely not caused by God. Or, have I misunderstood your position?
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Re: plagues
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#115809
07/11/09 02:22 AM
07/11/09 02:22 AM
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Do you see a difference between not preventing your child from getting in a car accident (e.g. he's come of age to drive, and you let him drive, after passing driver's ed and getting a license) and running over him with a car? No, this illustration is not correct at all to represent the incident mentioned (the serpents). An accidental death is not what we are discussing here. The death of many was certain without God's protection. About the death of the Egyptians. Was it accidental? (I'm here addressing some of Teresa's points too.) Who/what killed the Egyptians? They themselves, because of their sin? Of course in a sense yes - they were responsible for their own death; but they did not cause their own death. It was caused by the sea, and the sea was directly controlled by God. He could have waited for the Egyptians to go back (which EGW makes clear they had already begun to do). So the conclusion is inescapable that God killed the Egyptians. “They remembered the judgments that the God of the Hebrews had brought upon them in Egypt, to compel them to let Israel go, and they thought that God might deliver them all into the hands of the Israelites. They decided that God was fighting for the Israelites, and they were terribly afraid, and were turning about to flee from them, when ‘the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians.’” {1SP 209.2} ... I don't believe the difference between God and Satan is in the manner of destruction – Satan destroying actively and God destroying passively (by removing His protection). In fact, there is no difference between destroying actively and destroying passively. God Himself teaches this in the story of David and Uriah. Although David did not personally take the life of Uriah, he is still accused of having “struck down Uriah the Hittitie with the sword” (2 Sam. 12:9). The difference between God and Satan is in the motivation for destruction. Satan destroys to make others suffer, God destroys in mercy – mercy in limiting the miserable existence of those who are destroyed, and mercy to others for whom they became a menace. “He [God] gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace.” {2SAT 186.4} Rosangela, once again, well said. I fully agree with your perspective here. One illustration more correct to represent some situations we are discussing here would be that one I presented in the discussion about the flood to which I provided the link. Suppose the mayor of a city whose dam was not in good conditions builds a reinforcement system. One day, however, the people of that city say to him, “Go away, we don’t want you here and we don’t want your protection. Remove the reinforcement system you built!” Then he goes away and, respecting the wish of the people (sigh), he removes the reinforcement system of the dam, knowing that it will break and that the water will inundate the city and kill everyone.
In the example of the dam, which mayor would be less guilty of the death of the whole city? He who opened the floodgates or he who removed the reinforcement system? In this particular case, the mayor who was less guilty would be the mayor who opened up the floodgates. This is because by opening the floodgates he would have a chance to save some, as doing so might prevent the entire dam from bursting, and the water coming out would be less overall than if the dam should burst. This is, of course, exactly what God does. He "permits" some to be destroyed (by killing them, e.g. Sodom, the Egyptians, etc.) in order to save others. The plague that God sent among the Israelites which was causing the death of many of them at Baalpeor was stayed when certain of the Levites and leaders took spears and thrust through those who were engaging in sinful adultery. God honored their actions against the sinners. "A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up...." (Ecclesiastes 3:3, KJV) I also agree with Rosangela's thoughts and insights.
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