if you cannot answer this why not just admit it? why ignore it as if it were not posted?

The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}

The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2}

"The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." Isaiah 26:21. "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor." Zechariah 14:12, 13. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}

The command is, "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." Saith God. "I will recompense their way upon their head." {TM 431.3}

The words will soon be spoken, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." One of the ministers of vengeance declares. "And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." These heavenly beings, in executing the mandate of God, ask no questions, but do as they are bid. Jehovah of hosts, the Lord God Almighty, the just, the true, and the holy, has given them their work to do. With unswerving fidelity they go forth panoplied in pure white linen, having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And when their task is done, when the last vial of God's wrath is poured out, they return and lay their emptied vials at the feet of the Lord. {TM 432.1}

Tom:The question is if it's OK to cause others excruciating pain if its eternally beneficial. The assumption is being made that it's OK for God to do this.

A:Let's hold off on the assumptions and deal with some facts, which I already posted but seems to have been missed in all the excitement.

Was the angel who rescued Peter the same angel who caused "great agony of mind and body" to Herod? The answer is clearly Yes.

Was he acting in harmony or in contradiction to God's will when he smote Herod? Yes or No? The answer to that will help determine if it's OK to cause others excruciating pain if it's eternally beneficial.

you mean we will actually start studying the plagues one by one and see what happens? or do you mean we will continue to wonder all over the place disregarding posts, bible texts, and sop that dont fit a particular picture?

mm, if you and company want to try and prove toms beliefs wrong why not start a thread on that instead of hijacking mine? over and over and over again. you all havent won any brownie points for your side yet.

MM, as you've been asking quite a few questions, please permit me to ask one.

Where in Christ's human life did He act or teach principles which are in harmony with how you view the plagues playing out?

The fact is that you stated the principle that it's OK to cause pain if its eternally beneficial. This is what you said. You did not limit this to God when stating this, so I asked you if the principle applied to other areas.

OK, here's a quick summary:
1) God sometimes allows painful things to happen, if that will be eternally beneficial.
2) God sometimes causes painful things to happen, if that will be eternally beneficial.

I thought the list would be longer, but it turns out that pretty much sums up my view. If something is unclear, feel free to ask questions.

[In] my opinion . . . you believe that angels do the same thing you believe God does, which is to cause pain if its eternally beneficial. So this principle is evidently NOT limited only to God. Does it apply to human beings?

It appears to me from your question:


that you are agreeing with me in stating my opinion that you believe that angels do the same thing you believe God does, which is to cause pain if its eternally beneficial.

So this principle is evidently NOT limited only to God. Does it apply to human beings?

I'd like to weigh in on this, too. I believe it has to do with whether one is operating under a theocracy under orders from God as to whether or not executing justice and judgment is lawful in the sight of God. Noah and Lot were not commanded to drown or burn sinners alive; whereas, Moses was commanded to kill sinners. God also commanded Moses to participate with Him in announcing the out pouring of the plagues on Egypt. Given this background, I believe it is safe to say God will command holy angels to pour out the plagues after human probation closes.

I don’t know how I overlooked this post. I’m terribly sorry.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying or suggesting. Are you saying the five men bearing slaughtering weapons in Eze 9 symbolize the wicked that will turn upon the false shepherds during the end of the outpouring of the plagues? That is, are you suggesting the following scene will fulfill Eze 9:

It was the angel of the Lord that killed all the first born in Egypt.

Children are the lawful prey of the enemy, because they are not subjects of grace, have not experienced the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus, and the evil angels have access to these children; and some parents are careless and suffer them to work with but little restraint. Parents have a great work to do in this matter, by correcting and subduing their children, and then by bringing them to God and claiming his blessing upon them. By the faithful and untiring efforts of the parents, and the blessing and grace entreated of God upon the children, the power of the evil angels will be broken, a sanctifying influence is shed upon the children, and the powers of darkness must give back. {RH, September 19, 1854 par. 11}
When the destroying angel was to pass through Egypt, to destroy the first-born of man and beast, Israel was commanded to gather their children and families into their houses with them, and then mark their door-posts with blood, that the destroying angel might pass by their dwellings, and if they failed to go through with this process, there was no difference made between them and the Egyptians. {RH, September 19, 1854 par. 12}

The destroying angel is soon to go forth again, not to destroy the first-born alone, but "to slay utterly old and young, both men, women, and little children" who have not the mark. Parents, if you wish to save your children, separate them from the world, keep them from the company of wicked children; for if you suffer them to go with wicked children, you cannot prevent them from partaking of their wickedness and being corrupted. It is your solemn duty to watch over your children, to choose the society at all times for them. Teach your children to obey you, then can they more easily obey the commands of God, and yield to his requirements. Don't let us neglect to pray with and for our children. He who said, "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me," will listen to our prayers for them, and the seal, or mark, of believing parents will cover their children, if they are trained up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Mrs. E. G. White. {RH, March 28, 1893 par. 13}

"He will give them that are wicked to the sword." {GC 656.1} Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2} The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed.

After the saints were delivered by the voice of God, the rage of the wicked multitude was turned upon each other. The earth seemed to be deluged with blood, and dead bodies were from one end of the earth to the other. {1SG 211.1}) {GC 655.4}