i perceive we are going about this the "wrong" way. but im really not sure how to get "into" your way of thinking. what im hearing you say, based on your last paragraph here, is that for you there is no difference between God deliberately creating and sending "fiery serpents" among the people, than ceasing to hold them back. He is "responsible", as in deliberately wishing to inflict pain, either way.

ok, if my conclusion is true, that is how you see it.

glad that picture is leaving me, tho. glad im starting to see God as ever keeping me second by second, from the day i was born and that i need to concentrate on that, His wonderful mercies that i dont deserve.

ill keep the picture that is developing for me and let you keep yours.

So if I cease to provide my son the protection from hunger that he needs and I just let him reap the natural consequences of lack of food, that's a different situation from God ceasing to provide Herod with the protection from "great agony of mind and body" the he needed and God letting him reap the natural consequences of his disease?

IOW, God ceases to protect from X and person suffers X is OK. But, I cease to protect from X and person suffers from X is a different story? Sounds like goose.method is different from gander.method, wouldn't you say?

Furthermore, inspiration tells us an angel did it to Herod. But the angel is not the Creator and Sustainer either, mighty though he may have been. So it's OK for angels to do this "withhold protection from X until he dies from X in agony" under God's direction? That's your explanation for Herod's death, isn't it? God didn't "do" "it"; He just just withheld protection from "it" until "it" killed Herod.


No. People don't manage other people's bodies. They are not the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. I think you're going to be hard put to make an accurate analogy here which involves people. You agree with that, don't you?

However, that answer cannot explain these:
1) God ordering the stoning of the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath.
2) God ordering the slaying of the prophets of Baal by Elijah.
3) God ordering the killing of the unrepentant calf worshipers, and blessing the Levites for doing it.
4) God getting upset with Saul for not killing all the Amalekites.

More generally, since God caused the 3.5 year drought of Elijah, it seems unreasonable to say that God never causes pain. Unless it can be shown that the 3.5 year drought was painless for all involved.

Nope, that is exactly what I DID NOT say. I specifically did not say that God would be responsible in such a case.

You are being very unkind for accusing me of saying something that I very specifically did not say. Even cops, when they are interrogating some criminal, are not allowed to put words into their mouths. Could you give the same courtesy, begrudgingly if need be?

However, your response leads me to conclude that if I withhold food from my son, and he suffers from lack of food, somehow you would hold me responsible, right? But if God withheld protection from the Israelites, and they suffer from lack of protection, God is NOT responsible, right?

Essentially, if suffering results from my withholding something, it's my responsibility. But if suffering results from God withholding something, it's NOT His responsibility. Do I understand you correctly?

But I fell back into my "interrogation" mode. Let me rephrase all that as positive assertions: You are saying that if my son suffers from my withholding something from him, it is my responsibility; but if people suffer from God's withholding something, it is NOT His responsibility. What that means is that God operates under different standards than we do, or what's good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.

which have what to do with the plagues, "modsquad"?

please start a topic, "tom is wrong because...."

Does God send the plagues?
Does God send holy angels to send the plagues?
Does God send evil angels to send the plagues?
Does God allow evil angels to send the plagues?
Does God allow Satan to send the plagues?
Does God allow Nature to send the plagues?
Did God make a universe that has plagues just waiting to happen whenever God chooses to remove His protection from these plagues that are plaguing the universe He made?

Doesn't that have something to do, at least a little bit, with your original question about how to understand "He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them"?

my bad. since i hadnt seen anyone else state those two statements i assumed the comparison came from your mind. my apologies.

it appears to be a matter of perception. it appears that is what you hear tom saying while i dont.

could you give more detail please? i find it impossible to answer with such limited info. in other words what specific example of God withholding something given in the bible are you referring to, and how that would resemble withholding food from your son for 2 days in punishment.

in answer to your question, i purposely titled this thread "plagues" in order to deal with plagues, not just one.

but as i point out over and over, the contributions have more to do with trying to prove toms understanding wrong than it has to do with exploring the plagues, one by one, not generally.

im more interested in what happened in each plague, Gods reason and His purpose. in other words im more interested in getting to know God better. i dont mind that tom brings a different perspective. i dont have to accept it and i dont have to prove him wrong. he hasnt convinced me yet and he may never, but since God allowed satan free access to the angels in heaven til they had made up their mind one way or the other.....

sorry tom, im not equating you with satan. i do hope you understand the point i am trying to make.

Yes, quite different.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but what I'm saying is that the situation is different in regards to God's managing nature and you taking care of your son. God's managing nature would be more like an engineer managing a nuclear power plant, or a pilot flying the space shuttle. Say you come and insist upon taking the controls yourself. I'm not saying this is a perfect analogy, but I see what's happening to be more along these lines. Herod was putting himself in the place of God, so God allow him to do so and suffer the consequences, in a sense.



Inspiration often presents God (or those acting in His behalf) as doing that which He permits. The question is, what is really happening? Of course, we may not have enough information to say exactly, but we can have a general idea, based on principles the Lord has communicated to us.



It's rather a difficult subject to answer in just a few words, but, very briefly, I think it's more along the lines of the nuclear power plant engineer who has the controls taken out of his hands. Herod was, in essence, doing this, and suffered the consequences. To use the language of the SOP:





It seems to me where our biggest difference of opinion lies is that you view God as being responsible for these things happening, and I don't. For example, I notice things like "By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them" and "But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." as communicating the principles that:

a.X causes the protection of God to be withdrawn from X.
b.X causes God to leave X to reap that which he has sown.

I see X as the cause (not including cases like Job, where God withdraws His protection for a different reason).

I don't know what you're talking about here. Here's what I'm asking. You've said that God sometimes causes pain if its eternally beneficial. You appear to believe the same principle applies to angels, if God commands them. Does it apply to humans?

Is there some reason you don't want to answer this question? I think I've been asking this question for over a week now, and I still haven't gotten an answer.



I think all of these incidents can be explained by the principles outlined in GC 35 and 36. I won't go into details here. If you wish to discuss these in another topic, we can.

I must say, I enjoyed your response.

However, it was not clear to me from your post that you had in mind we were comparing the object and its relationship to its container objects and not one instance to another.

As Tom has stated, your response seems to support that Hitler and God do indeed have the same methods relating to their container objects. Perhaps you can clear this up and state how Hitler relates to his container objects and then compare how God relates to His.