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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116490
07/22/09 05:17 AM
07/22/09 05:17 AM
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So do you feel that Paul's mistakes were equally inspired? who decided paul made mistakes? i mean paul was inspired. God oversaw what was to be included in the canon. we certainly arent deciding that we, uninspired and definitely not God, are capable of deciding what "mistakes" are in the holy word, are we?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: teresaq]
#116491
07/22/09 05:24 AM
07/22/09 05:24 AM
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Teresa,
When I find a clear contradiction in the Word of God, one or the other is a mistake. I suppose one could "rob Peter to pay Paul" and say the mistake was "the other guy," but then that still does not settle the matter about their having been a mistake in the canon to begin with. However, I'm quite convinced as to who made the mistake.
Do you, Teresa, view the mistakes as inspired?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: asygo]
#116495
07/22/09 08:38 AM
07/22/09 08:38 AM
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The question i would ask is, if Adventism has a 'problem texts' issue with Paul, why is the first assumption that there is something wrong with Paul? Because it would take a whole lot more work on my part if there is something wrong with me. I'm not saying everybody is in that boat, but I'm sure there are not many empty seats in the boat. Oh, didn't think about that. Well, in such case.. 
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116496
07/22/09 08:42 AM
07/22/09 08:42 AM
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Teresa,
When I find a clear contradiction in the Word of God, one or the other is a mistake. I suppose one could "rob Peter to pay Paul" and say the mistake was "the other guy," but then that still does not settle the matter about their having been a mistake in the canon to begin with. However, I'm quite convinced as to who made the mistake.
Do you, Teresa, view the mistakes as inspired?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Its high time you put your cards on the table. Which mistakes more exactly are you finding in Pauls writings? And compared to what general message are they mistakes?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: vastergotland]
#116517
07/22/09 04:24 PM
07/22/09 04:24 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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Its high time you put your cards on the table. Which mistakes more exactly are you finding in Pauls writings? And compared to what general message are they mistakes? Vaster, This thread may not be the appropriate place to go into all of that. It is not a subject for the faint of heart, and I do not enjoy dwelling upon it. However, I am concerned for those who blindly deny that their Bibles can have any errors in them, as if that which is written in human language by imperfect men can still be as perfect and infallible as God. When such persons once run against a tough issue, their faith may shatter. Here are a few somewhat opposing viewpoints from Mrs. White which help to set some boundaries on the topic of errors in the Bible. There are men who strive to be original, who are wise above what is written; therefore, their wisdom is foolishness. . . . In seeking to make plain or to unravel mysteries hid from ages from mortal man, they are like a man floundering about in the mud, unable to extricate himself and yet telling others how to get out of the muddy sea they themselves are in. This is a fit representation of the men who set themselves to correct the errors of the Bible. No man can improve the Bible by suggesting what the Lord meant to say or ought to have said. . . . {FLB 13.4} That's a strong statement which, if applied with a broad stroke, would nullify all of the modern Bible translations as having been forbidden works. One must be careful to discern the context...in this case, the motives of those making the corrections. That this does not apply to every case or to every person is clear from the following quote. While Luther was opening a closed Bible to the people of Germany, Tyndale was impelled by the Spirit of God to do the same for England. Wycliffe's Bible had been translated from the Latin text, which contained many errors. It had never been printed, and the cost of manuscript copies was so great that few but wealthy men or nobles could procure it, and, furthermore, being strictly proscribed by the church, it had had a comparatively narrow circulation. In 1516, a year before the appearance of Luther's theses, Erasmus had published his Greek and Latin version of the New Testament. Now for the first time the Word of God was printed in the original tongue. In this work many errors of former versions were corrected, and the sense was more clearly rendered. It led many among the educated classes to a better knowledge of the truth, and gave a new impetus to the work of reform. But the common people were still, to a great extent, debarred from God's Word. Tyndale was to complete the work of Wycliffe in giving the Bible to his countrymen. {GC88 245.1} Finally, Mrs. White hints that the Bible itself would become a battleground in the last conflict with Satan. In seeking to cast contempt upon the divine statutes, Satan has perverted the doctrines of the Bible, and errors have thus become incorporated into the faith of thousands who profess to believe the Scriptures. The last great conflict between truth and error is but the final struggle of the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God. Upon this battle we are now entering,--a battle between the laws of men and the precepts of Jehovah, between the religion of the Bible and the religion of fable and tradition. {GC88 582.2}
.... Instead of criticizing the Bible, let us seek, by precept and example, to present to the world its sacred, life-giving truths, that we may "show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." {5T 710.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116534
07/22/09 08:21 PM
07/22/09 08:21 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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Its high time you put your cards on the table. Which mistakes more exactly are you finding in Pauls writings? And compared to what general message are they mistakes? Vaster, This thread may not be the appropriate place to go into all of that. It is not a subject for the faint of heart, and I do not enjoy dwelling upon it. However, I am concerned for those who blindly deny that their Bibles can have any errors in them, as if that which is written in human language by imperfect men can still be as perfect and infallible as God. When such persons once run against a tough issue, their faith may shatter. Here are a few somewhat opposing viewpoints from Mrs. White which help to set some boundaries on the topic of errors in the Bible. There are men who strive to be original, who are wise above what is written; therefore, their wisdom is foolishness. . . . In seeking to make plain or to unravel mysteries hid from ages from mortal man, they are like a man floundering about in the mud, unable to extricate himself and yet telling others how to get out of the muddy sea they themselves are in. This is a fit representation of the men who set themselves to correct the errors of the Bible. No man can improve the Bible by suggesting what the Lord meant to say or ought to have said. . . . {FLB 13.4} That's a strong statement which, if applied with a broad stroke, would nullify all of the modern Bible translations as having been forbidden works. One must be careful to discern the context...in this case, the motives of those making the corrections. That this does not apply to every case or to every person is clear from the following quote. While Luther was opening a closed Bible to the people of Germany, Tyndale was impelled by the Spirit of God to do the same for England. Wycliffe's Bible had been translated from the Latin text, which contained many errors. It had never been printed, and the cost of manuscript copies was so great that few but wealthy men or nobles could procure it, and, furthermore, being strictly proscribed by the church, it had had a comparatively narrow circulation. In 1516, a year before the appearance of Luther's theses, Erasmus had published his Greek and Latin version of the New Testament. Now for the first time the Word of God was printed in the original tongue. In this work many errors of former versions were corrected, and the sense was more clearly rendered. It led many among the educated classes to a better knowledge of the truth, and gave a new impetus to the work of reform. But the common people were still, to a great extent, debarred from God's Word. Tyndale was to complete the work of Wycliffe in giving the Bible to his countrymen. {GC88 245.1} Finally, Mrs. White hints that the Bible itself would become a battleground in the last conflict with Satan. In seeking to cast contempt upon the divine statutes, Satan has perverted the doctrines of the Bible, and errors have thus become incorporated into the faith of thousands who profess to believe the Scriptures. The last great conflict between truth and error is but the final struggle of the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God. Upon this battle we are now entering,--a battle between the laws of men and the precepts of Jehovah, between the religion of the Bible and the religion of fable and tradition. {GC88 582.2}
.... Instead of criticizing the Bible, let us seek, by precept and example, to present to the world its sacred, life-giving truths, that we may "show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." {5T 710.1} thomas asked you specifically about pauls writings. Teresa,
When I find a clear contradiction in the Word of God, one or the other is a mistake. I suppose one could "rob Peter to pay Paul" and say the mistake was "the other guy," but then that still does not settle the matter about their having been a mistake in the canon to begin with. However, I'm quite convinced as to who made the mistake.
Do you, Teresa, view the mistakes as inspired? this is an evasive answer with a manipulative question, but i believe the light is dawning. are you refering to pauls writings or bible translations?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: teresaq]
#116535
07/22/09 08:25 PM
07/22/09 08:25 PM
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except here and in subsequent posts you very clearly seem to be saying that you are capable of knowing what pauls mistakes are. gc: Paul may be your favorite Bible author, but he just so happens to be one of the most difficult to correctly understand. The imprecise wording which he frequently chose and his convoluted grammar have created a large number of the "problem texts" that Adventists struggle to explain today. I have heard it said that if it were not for Paul's writings, it would be easier to preach the Adventist message. as far as im concerned you are walking on dangerous ground and i want no part of it.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: teresaq]
#116565
07/23/09 05:34 AM
07/23/09 05:34 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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except here and in subsequent posts you very clearly seem to be saying that you are capable of knowing what pauls mistakes are. gc: Paul may be your favorite Bible author, but he just so happens to be one of the most difficult to correctly understand. The imprecise wording which he frequently chose and his convoluted grammar have created a large number of the "problem texts" that Adventists struggle to explain today. I have heard it said that if it were not for Paul's writings, it would be easier to preach the Adventist message. as far as im concerned you are walking on dangerous ground and i want no part of it. Teresa, Please remember Christian courtesy here even if you disagree. Being scornful of others could never hope to win them to your side, even if you are right and they are wrong. In fact, I was tempted to merely ignore the request to post proof on Paul's imprecision, as I do not believe Christians do well to focus on the errors of the Bible. Yet I am feeling forced by your questions to show you that which you claim is "dangerous ground." It may well be. Please do not jeopardize your soul to read any further if you feel you do not wish to be apprised of any errors. If you choose to read the evidence which follows, I think you will understand clearly how I can be "capable of knowing what pauls mistakes are" in this case. This one involves some elementary-school math. Paul was mistaken by nearly 100 years. But a century, for a well-educated Jew, in an age when genealogies were fresh in the Jewish mind and culture, is hardly excusable. The error comes just under 100 years, about 94 years if I calculate right. It is in Acts 13.
And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. (Acts 13:18, KJV)
And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. (Acts 13:19, KJV)
And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. (Acts 13:20, KJV)
And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. (Acts 13:21, KJV)
Paul is giving the time line here of the Jews for a number of centuries, as follows: 40 Years -- in the wilderness 450 Years -- time of the judges until Samuel 40 Years -- reign of Saul (only reference for years of Saul in Bible) Continuing Paul's time line from the OT we have: 40 Years -- reign of David (2 Samuel 5:4, KJV) 40 Years -- reign of Solomon (1 Kings 11:42, KJV) ------------------ 610 Years TOTAL (Exodus thru Solomon) PAUL'S FIGURE Now, from the scribal record of the Kings and in the Chronicles, we have the following: 480 Years -- Exodus to 4th year of Solomon (1 Kings 6:1) 36 Years -- remainder of Solomon's reign ------------------ 516 Years TOTAL (Exodus thru Solomon) ACTUAL FIGURE Therefore, 610 - 516 = 94 years discrepancy. Either the king's scribes were wrong, or Paul was wrong. You know who I choose. Lest you think that Paul's imprecision is limited to dates and genealogies, look carefully at what he wrote here: But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. (Titus 3:9, KJV) He appears to think that anyone who focuses too much on the details is taking things too far, even when it concerns the law. Paul is not a detailed person. We pick apart his exact wording too often to our own hurt, when he never placed so much emphasis on the exact wording himself. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116566
07/23/09 06:06 AM
07/23/09 06:06 AM
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insult at will. it is bad enough when ellen whites writings are brought into question by supposed tampering or whatever, but i will have no part in any discussion that casts doubt on any part of the word of God. i shall give this board a rest til this subject is over. page 1: I agree with the pastor(s) that Ratzlaff quoted as saying Paul has undermined the law. By his careless wording on this point, I believe Paul inadvertently did just that. For example, in the following statement, Paul omitted two words: "ye are not under the law." The omission of these two words, which would have cleared things up greatly, has caused the majority of our own Adventist pastors and members to misunderstand his meaning. Those words are "penalty of." Unfortunately, many are just too happy to throw out the law because of the imprecise wording here, in spite of the fact Paul also claims to "uphold the law."
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Strange and Unheard of Supposed Comments By Seventh-day Adventists
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116568
07/23/09 12:51 PM
07/23/09 12:51 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Its high time you put your cards on the table. Which mistakes more exactly are you finding in Pauls writings? And compared to what general message are they mistakes? Vaster, This thread may not be the appropriate place to go into all of that. It is not a subject for the faint of heart, and I do not enjoy dwelling upon it. However, I am concerned for those who blindly deny that their Bibles can have any errors in them, as if that which is written in human language by imperfect men can still be as perfect and infallible as God. When such persons once run against a tough issue, their faith may shatter. Then start such a thread that is appropriate for this. You have spent too much time complaining about Pauls errors not to come clean on what exactly those errors are. Your concern for those with a blind faith in biblical inerracy is touching but may I remind you that what sets you free from a lie is truth, not suppressed truth. Here are a few somewhat opposing viewpoints from Mrs. White which help to set some boundaries on the topic of errors in the Bible. There are men who strive to be original, who are wise above what is written; therefore, their wisdom is foolishness. . . . In seeking to make plain or to unravel mysteries hid from ages from mortal man, they are like a man floundering about in the mud, unable to extricate himself and yet telling others how to get out of the muddy sea they themselves are in. This is a fit representation of the men who set themselves to correct the errors of the Bible. No man can improve the Bible by suggesting what the Lord meant to say or ought to have said. . . . {FLB 13.4} That's a strong statement which, if applied with a broad stroke, would nullify all of the modern Bible translations as having been forbidden works. One must be careful to discern the context...in this case, the motives of those making the corrections. That this does not apply to every case or to every person is clear from the following quote. It is a strong statement, but it seems you and I read it in opposite ways. You apparently see it commenting those who would update archaic language from older translations to newer translations. I see it refering much more directly to what you have been doing here, with your repeated suggestion that Paul ought to have written differently than how he wrote in the interest of truth. It appears to me that in this thread, you was that man who "set themselves to correct the errors of the Bible." While Luther was opening a closed Bible to the people of Germany, Tyndale was impelled by the Spirit of God to do the same for England. Wycliffe's Bible had been translated from the Latin text, which contained many errors. It had never been printed, and the cost of manuscript copies was so great that few but wealthy men or nobles could procure it, and, furthermore, being strictly proscribed by the church, it had had a comparatively narrow circulation. In 1516, a year before the appearance of Luther's theses, Erasmus had published his Greek and Latin version of the New Testament. Now for the first time the Word of God was printed in the original tongue. In this work many errors of former versions were corrected, and the sense was more clearly rendered. It led many among the educated classes to a better knowledge of the truth, and gave a new impetus to the work of reform. But the common people were still, to a great extent, debarred from God's Word. Tyndale was to complete the work of Wycliffe in giving the Bible to his countrymen. {GC88 245.1} Finally, Mrs. White hints that the Bible itself would become a battleground in the last conflict with Satan. In seeking to cast contempt upon the divine statutes, Satan has perverted the doctrines of the Bible, and errors have thus become incorporated into the faith of thousands who profess to believe the Scriptures. The last great conflict between truth and error is but the final struggle of the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God. Upon this battle we are now entering,--a battle between the laws of men and the precepts of Jehovah, between the religion of the Bible and the religion of fable and tradition. {GC88 582.2}
.... Instead of criticizing the Bible, let us seek, by precept and example, to present to the world its sacred, life-giving truths, that we may "show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." {5T 710.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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