Tom:The question I have in mind is the one involving causing excruciating pain if its eternally beneficial. It appears you believe this is OK for God, and OK for angels. I've been trying to ascertain if you believe it's OK for humans.

I'm still trying to ascertain this!

M: [Outlined each plague individually and commented on who caused it to happen] See Page 60 #116413.

t: is that how people in the church study?

M: Bummer! By nature, I'm a people pleaser; and I hate it when my attempts fail. Sorry. Better luck next time.

t: guilt trip, not buying!!

"Before the infliction of each plague, Moses was to describe its nature and effects, that the king might save himself from it if he chose. Every punishment rejected would be followed by one more severe, until his proud heart would be humbled, and he would acknowledge the Maker of heaven and earth as the true and living God. The Lord would give the Egyptians an opportunity to see how vain was the wisdom of their mighty men, how feeble the power of their gods, when opposed to the commands of Jehovah. He would punish the people of Egypt for their idolatry and silence their boasting of the blessings received from their senseless deities. God would glorify His own name, that other nations might hear of His power and tremble at His mighty acts, and that His people might be led to turn from their idolatry and render Him pure worship. {PP 263.1}

1. Water to Blood
And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.

M: God changed the water into blood. The laws of nature do not account for this miracle.

t: thank you for your contribution.

t: it must have been horrible if it was literally turned to blood.

t: we have a great example in God mingling mercy with judgment here: [quote]Exo 7:24 And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

MM, I must have missed seeing any more insight into our communication problem. Perhaps you missed it. [Here it is again]:

M: Kland, the following passage and verses reflect what I had in mind:

"In commemoration of this great deliverance a feast was to be observed yearly by the people of Israel in all future generations. "This day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations: ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever." As they should keep the feast in future years, they were to repeat to their children the story of this great deliverance, as Moses bade them: "Ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord's Passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses." {PP 274.3}

Furthermore, the first-born of both man and beast were to be the Lord's, to be bought back only by a ransom, in acknowledgment that when the first-born in Egypt perished, that of Israel, though graciously preserved, had been justly exposed to the same doom but for the atoning sacrifice. "All the first-born are Mine," the Lord declared; "for on the day that I smote all the first-born in the land of Egypt, I hallowed unto Me all the first-born in Israel, both man and beast: Mine they shall be," Numbers 3:13. After the institution of the tabernacle service the Lord chose unto Himself the tribe of Levi for the work of the sanctuary, instead of the first-born of the people. "They are wholly given unto Me from among the children of Israel," He said. "Instead of the first-born of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto Me." Numbers 8:16. All the people were, however, still required, in acknowledgment of God's mercy, to pay a redemption price for the first-born son. Numbers 18:15, 16. {PP 274.4}

M: By underlining certain parts above I am by no means disregarding the rest of it. I am simply pointing out that the Passover Feast celebrated life and death - the death of the Egyptians and the life of the Israelites.

K: Thank you for explaining why you made the previous statement. I don't know about you, but I am understanding more why there is such a communication barrier between us. Not saying I understand why, but that there is.

It appears to me, that if you should fall and get sand and rock embedded in your skin and then had it removed, that if someone should say: "Remember, celebrate, commemorate the removal of the sand from your body, that day they used antiseptic and it burned so much you thought you were going to pass out, but that you were made whole and restored."

You would celebrate the burning sensation. If someone should say: "Remember, celebrate, commemorate your wedding day, the day you gave up your individual life, the day you gave up your parents and became one with your wife." You would remember / mourn what you gave up.

I realize you said you were not disregarding the rest of the passage, but it seems like instead of celebrating the joy, you are celebrating the pain. Instead of remembering the main event, you are remembering the footnotes.

Go back and reread those passages you quoted and see if the death, the pain, is what is being requested to remember and celebrate or if there is something else that should be remembered and celebrated. Was it deliverance or was it the loss of meat and leeks (which was true and did happen on that day -- hmmm).

Exodus
12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
12:22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip [it] in the blood that [is] in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that [is] in the basin; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite [you].
12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
12:27 That ye shall say, It [is] the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.
12:28 And the children of Israel went away, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

In commemoration of this great deliverance a feast was to be observed yearly by the people of Israel in all future generations. "This day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations: ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever." As they should keep the feast in future years, they were to repeat to their children the story of this great deliverance, as Moses bade them: "Ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord's Passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses." {PP 274.3}

Furthermore, the first-born of both man and beast were to be the Lord's, to be bought back only by a ransom, in acknowledgment that when the first-born in Egypt perished, that of Israel, though graciously preserved, had been justly exposed to the same doom but for the atoning sacrifice. "All the first-born are Mine," the Lord declared; "for on the day that I smote all the first-born in the land of Egypt, I hallowed unto Me all the first-born in Israel, both man and beast: Mine they shall be," Numbers 3:13. After the institution of the tabernacle service the Lord chose unto Himself the tribe of Levi for the work of the sanctuary, instead of the first-born of the people. "They are wholly given unto Me from among the children of Israel," He said. "Instead of the first-born of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto Me." Numbers 8:16. All the people were, however, still required, in acknowledgment of God's mercy, to pay a redemption price for the first-born son. Numbers 18:15, 16. {PP 274.4}

The Passover was to be both commemorative and typical, not only pointing back to the deliverance from Egypt, but forward to the greater deliverance which Christ was to accomplish in freeing His people from the bondage of sin. The sacrificial lamb represents "the Lamb of God," in whom is our only hope of salvation. Says the apostle, "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us." 1 Corinthians 5:7. It was not enough that the paschal lamb be slain; its blood must be sprinkled upon the doorposts; so the merits of Christ's blood must be applied to the soul. We must believe, not only that He died for the world, but that He died for us individually. We must appropriate to ourselves the virtue of the atoning sacrifice. {PP 277.1}

In survival training we dig "seep wells" near suspect water sources. Passing through the sand and soil into the hole serves to purify the water. It's possible this is what the people did in Egypt.

BTW, it says the magicians copied this plague. I wonder what water source was left that wasn't already turned into blood?

Another thought, certain tribes would have had no problem drinking the blood. The Masai do it all the time.

so, the water God "chemically" turned into blood was "purified" back into water?

M: Do you think God chemically changed the water into blood? And, while I'm at it, do you think He literally changed dust into lice, and that He literally changed furnace ash into a substance that caused boils?

t: why do you want opinions?, faulty human understandings?

what did you think of the points brought out by the commentators?

Moses and Aaron were directed to visit the riverside next morning, where the king was accustomed to repair. The overflowing of the Nile being the source of food and wealth for all Egypt, the river was worshiped as a god, and the monarch came thither daily to pay his devotions. Here the two brothers again repeated the message to him, and then they stretched out the rod and smote upon the water. The sacred stream ran blood, the fish died, and the river became offensive to the smell. The water in the houses, the supply preserved in cisterns, was likewise changed to blood. But "the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments," and "Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also." For seven days the plague continued, but without effect. {PP 265.1}

when you run seawater through that system does it get rid of the salt?