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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#118334
08/29/09 12:58 AM
08/29/09 12:58 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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How can a minute detail be in harmony with the law but not an amplification of it? For instance, do you consider that the following command is an amplification of God's moral law? Leviticus 21:5 They shall not make any bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh. If it was (past tense) a sin to practice them what changed that it was now (present tense) okay for God to give them direction in how to practice them? As Teresa said, God meets us where we are. Suppose a polygamous man in Africa joins the church. Don't you think some rules can be added to regulate his conduct? For instance, suppose a hypothetical rule says that if he keeps all his wives he should provide for all of them. Is this rule sanctioning his polygamy? However, what is still not clear to me is if you believe it was a sin to practice such things in accordance with God's law. I assume your answer is, no No, my answer is yes, it was a sin, although it was a sin of ignorance.
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Rosangela]
#118371
08/29/09 10:50 PM
08/29/09 10:50 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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M: How can a minute detail be in harmony with the law but not an amplification of it?
R: For instance, do you consider that the following command is an amplification of God's moral law?
Leviticus 21:5 They shall not make any bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh. Yes, I do. My understanding of this detailed amplification of the moral law is that it prohibited the COI from imitating the pagan rites associated with pagan ceremonies. So many different things come to mind - have no other gods, make no graven images, do not be a stumbling block to unbelievers - to name a few. M: If it was (past tense) a sin to practice them what changed that it was now (present tense) okay for God to give them direction in how to practice them?
R: As Teresa said, God meets us where we are. Suppose a polygamous man in Africa joins the church. Don't you think some rules can be added to regulate his conduct? For instance, suppose a hypothetical rule says that if he keeps all his wives he should provide for all of them. Is this rule sanctioning his polygamy? Are there not ordained laws in the Bible directing the practice of polygamy? If so, then we need not discuss hypothetical cases, right? Where in the Bible do you get the impression that the laws directing the practice of polygamy were temporary? M: However, what is still not clear to me is if you believe it was a sin to practice such things in accordance with God's law. I assume your answer is, no.
R: No, my answer is yes, it was a sin, although it was a sin of ignorance. Do you have inspired support to back up this idea? I have never read in the Bible or the SOP where God gave the COI laws directing them in the practice of sin.
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#118375
08/29/09 11:59 PM
08/29/09 11:59 PM
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M: If it was (past tense) a sin to practice them what changed that it was now (present tense) okay for God to give them direction in how to practice them?
R: As Teresa said, God meets us where we are. Suppose a polygamous man in Africa joins the church. Don't you think some rules can be added to regulate his conduct? For instance, suppose a hypothetical rule says that if he keeps all his wives he should provide for all of them. Is this rule sanctioning his polygamy? Are there not ordained laws in the Bible directing the practice of polygamy? If so, then we need not discuss hypothetical cases, right? Where in the Bible do you get the impression that the laws directing the practice of polygamy were temporary? i believe what roseangela may be trying to point out, (and she is perfectly capable of speaking for herself, but if she will permit me) it is against the standards of the seventh-day-adventist church to allow polygamy. but if we are in a country where polygamy is practiced, then we need to institute the ot laws governing polygamy for the sake of those families, while teaching that polygamy is a sin in Gods sight. M: However, what is still not clear to me is if you believe it was a sin to practice such things in accordance with God's law. I assume your answer is, no. R: No, my answer is yes, it was a sin, although it was a sin of ignorance. Do you have inspired support to back up this idea? I have never read in the Bible or the SOP where God gave the COI laws directing them in the practice of sin. these are some statements from the messenger of the Lord that touch on this issue.notice this is pertaining to king david after the "regulations" concerning polygamy had been instituted by God. He finally fell into the common practice of other kings around him, of having a plurality of wives, and his life was embittered by the evil results of polygamy. His first wrong was in taking more than one wife, thus departing from God's wise arrangement. This departure from right prepared the way for greater errors. The kingly idolatrous nations considered it an addition to their honor and dignity to have many wives, and David regarded it an honor to his throne to possess several wives. But he was made to see the wretched evil of such a course by the unhappy discord, rivalry, and jealousy among his numerous wives and children. {TSB 93.3} Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. . . . {CTr 82.2} Polygamy was practiced at an early date. It was one of the sins that brought the wrath of God upon the antediluvian world. . . . It was Satan's studied effort to pervert the marriage institution, to weaken its obligations and lessen its sacredness; for in no surer way could he deface the image of God in man and open the door to misery and vice. {CC 36.5} The sin of Jacob, and the train of events to which it led, had not failed to exert an influence for evil--an influence that revealed its bitter fruit in the character and life of his sons. As these sons arrived at manhood they developed serious faults. The results of polygamy were manifest in the household. This terrible evil tends to dry up the very springs of love, and its influence weakens the most sacred ties. The jealousy of the several mothers had embittered the family relation, the children had grown up contentious and impatient of control, and the father's life was darkened with anxiety and grief. {CC 72.2} Their keen sense of the high, holy character of God was deadened. Refusing to follow in the path of obedience, they transferred their allegiance to the enemy of righteousness. ... Polygamy was countenanced. Idolatrous mothers brought their children up to observe heathen rites. In the lives of some, the pure religious service instituted by God was replaced by idolatry of the darkest hue. {PK 58.2} these statements are a combination of instances from before and after the regulations of God were instituted controlling the evil practice of polygamy. notice that God considered it evil before and evil after His regulating the practice.there are similar statements for the other practices.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: teresaq]
#118418
08/30/09 06:11 PM
08/30/09 06:11 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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Teresa, yes, polygamy was not God's original plan for marriage. Nor was it His idea will even though He gave the COI direction in how to practice it. But to say polygamy is a sin because it inevitably results in bad homes and marriages overlooks the fact the same things have been observed in monogamous homes and marriages. Not saying you are saying this. Whether or not bigamy or polygamy ends in bad homes and marriages depends of the people involved and why they've adopted it. In those cases where it was preferable to the alternative (destitution or prostitution) I'm quite certain God was able to bless them with happiness. In such cases it seems hardly fair or kind to criticize it as a "heinous sin".
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#118431
08/30/09 09:00 PM
08/30/09 09:00 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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Teresa, yes, polygamy was not God's original plan for marriage. Nor was it His idea will even though He gave the COI direction in how to practice it. But to say polygamy is a sin because it inevitably results in bad homes and marriages overlooks the fact the same things have been observed in monogamous homes and marriages. Not saying you are saying this. Whether or not bigamy or polygamy ends in bad homes and marriages depends of the people involved and why they've adopted it. In those cases where it was preferable to the alternative (destitution or prostitution) I'm quite certain God was able to bless them with happiness. In such cases it seems hardly fair or kind to criticize it as a "heinous sin".
This terrible evil ..{CC 72.2 i dont think you realize that it is not i that you are disagreeing with. Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. . . . {CTr 82.2} i would like to sit in on some of the discussions you could have with ellen white were she still here.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: teresaq]
#118483
08/31/09 02:35 PM
08/31/09 02:35 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Mike,
Wouldn't it be easier if you listed the polygamy/divorce laws you are speaking about so that we could discuss them?
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Rosangela]
#118487
08/31/09 03:14 PM
08/31/09 03:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M:Do you have inspired support to back up this idea? I have never read in the Bible or the SOP where God gave the COI laws directing them in the practice of sin. Aren't you employing circular reasoning here? Your reasoning seems to be: 1.Thing A, in general, is a sin. 2.God gives counsel regarding Thing A in the law of Moses. 3.Therefore thing A is not a sin. So given you feel this way, how could anyone provide any Scriptural support to counteract your idea? You would reclassify any example given to make the thing under consideration not sin in your mind. What people are saying here is: 1.Thing A is a sin. 2.Because of the hardness of people's heart, God made allowance for this, and gave them counsel in regards to thing A. 3.Thing A did not change from being a sin to not being a sin because of God's kindness and patience in dealing with those who were practicing it. Your characterization that God gave the COI laws directing them in the practice of sin. is, IMO, extremely poorly worded. I don't see that anyone has claimed this. I've seen the items I've delineated claimed. Perhaps a difficulty here is that in your mind these things are equivalent. That is, you don't see any difference between God's making allowance for sin, because of the hardness of people's heart, wherein He provides counsel and God's "directing them in the practice of sin."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Tom]
#118508
08/31/09 10:54 PM
08/31/09 10:54 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, there is nothing circular about saying it is not a sin if we obey the laws of God.
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#118513
08/31/09 11:24 PM
08/31/09 11:24 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Rosangela, here are the verses that deal with polygamy: Exodus 21:10 If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Deuteronomy 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, [both] the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated: 21:16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit [that] which he hath, [that] he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, [which is indeed] the firstborn: 21:17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated [for] the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he [is] the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn [is] his.
Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. 25:6 And it shall be, [that] the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother [which is] dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. 25:7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. 25:8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and [if] he stand [to it], and say, I like not to take her; 25:9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. 25:10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.
Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 22:27 And last of all the woman died also. 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
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Re: The Old Covenant and Its Law—Only for Israel?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#118522
09/01/09 01:28 AM
09/01/09 01:28 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Mike,
About the passages of Exodus and Deuteronomy, some commentators, as James, Fausset and Brown, not even see them as implying polygamy. Anyway, since certainly there were already polygamous marriages when the people left Egypt, laws were made to prevent confusion and protect the rights of the weak (slaves) and the impartiality of parents in relation to their children. IOW, the laws weren't about polygamy, but about the rights of those who might suffer damage because of it. As to the levirate law, this law simply required the bachelor brother to marry his brother’s wife in case she was left a widow and childless. It's clear that the law has in view monogamous relationships, because the law doesn't mention that the brother should marry the "first" wife of his deceased brother.
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