I anticipated this argument in saying:



Also, if you look at EGW's statement, she points out that while the truths were present in the OT, they had been obscured. DA 22 brings out that the earth was dark with misunderstanding regarding God's character, and Christ came to lighten the gloomy shadows that had been case.

I find the resistance to the idea that all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of Son while in His humanity to be a bit perplexing. Realizing this truth was a life-changing experience for me.

Here's what I posted:



So when you say you disagree with this, you're disagreeing with yourself, right? That is, the "correct" should be "incorrect." So you no longer agree with what you thought a couple of years ago? This is what I'm trying to clarify.

Why should they die after revisiting the first sin?



For the reasons pointed out here:



Hopefully this isn't the same passage. The revelation of the beauty of God's character simultaneously reveals the ugliness of their own. You mentioned knowing Ty Gibson. Do you have his book, "See With New Eyes"? He explains the concept in detail there. If you have the book, I can tell you the page numbers.



Certainly it will cause them to suffer. In the DA 108 passage I cited, it says it "slays" the wicked, so it seems to be involved in their death as well, although I'd say it's not so much the comprehension of God's character, but their own, although seeing God's character is what brings to light their own. Again, I'd refer you to Ty Gibson's book, if you have it.



I didn't understand this. The inevitable result of sin is death is what I was trying to say. Or, to put it another way, sin results in death. (like smoking can result in cancer, for example).



According to the SOP, the only reason man didn't die right away is because God intervened, so this argument doesn't work. If God intervened to prevent man's death, He could have intervened to prevent Satan's death, and the death of His followers. DA 764 explains that God did this very thing, and explains why. Two reasons are given. One is that had God allowed Satan to die, his death would have been misunderstood as something God had caused to happen, as opposed to being the inevitable result of sin. The second reason is that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles of his government.

Regarding why sin doesn't cause sinners to suffer in the way they will suffering the final judgment, they are not being judged now. In the judgment, Jesus Christ is revealed to each unrighteous person. The events of His life, the bearing that has on each one, their own lives, where they stepped away from truth, etc., will all be revealed.



"God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles." (DA 764) If people died when they first sinned, they wouldn't have time to develop character.



Clearly something does, as DA 764 explains. Probably "grace" is not the best thing to call it.



God does. I pointed out two reasons why above.



Because they were created in the image of God. Remember that some are not resurrected, so not all are capable.



They were able to leave His presence.



I'm not sure what you mean by the presence of God. Without God everyone would die, whether sinners or not. Why? Because God is life, and all life comes from Him.

Clearly we disagree on this point. I believe this is true, and you don't.



No, this is wrong, which I've explained several dozen times in this thread. That Jesus Christ did reveal all that, by man, can be known of God in the flesh does not mean that He did not reveal things about God either before or after this period of time. I don't understand why there is such difficulty in grasping this point.



You can know what was revealed, which is what the quote is talking about.



This is a better point. It's true, you might misunderstand something Jesus Christ revealed in the flesh. And so you could go to some other revelation of the same point to some other source to try to understand what Jesus Christ revealed.

Ty Gibson wrote:



I believe the revelation of Jesus Christ while in His humanity is the clearest revelation of God, by far. In the OT, God was constrained by the hardness of the hearts of the Israelites. Much of what happened was not God's ideal will, so you have to strip away that which God did because that's what He would have wanted to do anyway, because that's the way He is, from what He did because He was constrained by circumstances. That's a much more difficult process than simply drinking from the living fountain which is Jesus Christ.



I think this is much more likely to confuse than enlighten, and think it has. I think considering Christ afresh would be helpful.



The SOP tells us that Christ came to lighten the world of the misunderstandings of God's character. He is the word of God, God's thought made audible. I find the following (I'll post in a separate post, because it's a bit long) to be in harmony with the points Ellen White makes.

The whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God. It would be good for us to spend a thoughtful hour each day meditating on the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes.

This is the foundation of all sin: the lie that God is untrustworthy, the lie that God is not altogether loving and that He doesn't have our best interests in mind. Adam and Eve came under the grip of this deceptive picture of God. At that moment they stopped trusting God as their source of life. Consequently, they saw themselves as deficient...

A faulty picture of God led to an ungodly evaluation that in turn brought about a rebellious action...The lie created an emptiness as well as the futile and rebellious means of filling it. A false concept of God, and therefore of herself, gave birth to sinful behavior, which in turn brought about spiritual and physical death (see Jas 1:14-16)...

Just as the foundation of all that separates us from God is a false picture of God, so too the foundation of all that restores our innocent communication iwth God is a true picture of God. So everything hangs on the question, Where do we find the true picture of God? The answer that the Bible unequivocally and emphatically gives is Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the truth that dispels the serpent's lie...

When God thinks, John is saying, it is Jesus. And when God expresses Himself, it is Jesus...wherever and whenever God thinks and expresses Himself, it is Jesus Christ.

Moreover, it has been this way throughout eternity...

This means that in knowing, we are not knowing someone "one step removed" from God. in knowing Jesus we are knowing God Himself, God in His eternal essence. In seeing Jesus, we are seeing the very heart of God...

Whereas the enemy covered up the true God in a veil of deceptive darkness that brought death, Jesus turns the light on so we can see who God really is. In doing this, Jesus gives life...

Only the revelation of God in Christ completely dispels all forms of the lie we have been deceived into believing. When our picture of God is built on any foundation other than Jesus Christ...we will be vulnerable to believing a lie about God... We will embrace a god that is consistent with our jaded presuppositions and fallible expectations, which keep us in bondage to the serpent's lie. Our understanding of God, ourselves, suffering and every other aspect of creation will be to some extent corrupted...

Idolatry takes place when we don't allow God to define Himself for us in Christ but rather embrace a picture of God on the basis of our life experiences, philosophical speculations or non-Christ-centered interpretations of Scripture...

All we can and need to know about God is found in Christ, for God fully dwells in and is revealed in Christ...

Christ was not an innocent third party who was punished against His will to apease the Father's wrath...Hence His sacrifice does not appease God's wrath; it reveals God's love.... In the crucified Christ the truth about God, about us and about the world is most perfectly revealed. For the cross is where reconciliation between God and the world is accomplished...

Under the impact of the primordial deception, the "natural mind" does not expect the omnipotent Creator to like like this...

The most fundamental distinguishing characteristic of every false picture of God is that it qualifies and compromises the truth about God's love. The most fundamental distinguishing characteristic of the true God is that the love He is and the love He gives is unsurpassable. A greater love simply cannot be conceived.

The love that God eternally is, is manifested in the love that God gives. And the love God gives is displayed most perfectly on the cross. (Is God be Blame? by Greg Boyd)

Tom,

You haven't answered Arnold's question in the thread "The Great Contoversy" and, as I'm also interested in knowing your position about this, I'm reposting it here:

see following post.

As I recall, I posted the following:



So on the basis of my quoting this, Arnold asked me if I believe that Satan still does not know he is wrong.

I suppose that depends upon whether one thinks Satan's denial of the existence is real or not, or just a pretense. From my reading of Ed. 154, it sounded to me like EGW was conveying the thought that Satan is serious.

I should add that the question, as Arnold posed it, assumes quite a bit. It assumes that Satan did not know he was wrong, and continues not knowing he was wrong. It's possible that Satan was at one time convinced he was wrong, and then later came to believe his own lies. The SOP says quite a bit about this (being careful with what we say, as it impacts us, and we may come to defend or believe what we said, even if we didn't really mean it when we said it).

Tom, I'm glad it changed your life. It is not my intention to take that away from you. All I'm saying is that Jesus revealed what we need to know about God through His actions and teachings. At one point it seemed we were agreement. Now it seems like we are at odds.

Your clarification is correct. More importantly, though, is what I do believe - "I believe God will rain down fire from above and raise up fire from below. The wicked will suffer in this environment." In addition to this, the radiant firelight of God's glorious presence will contribute to their suffering and death.