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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: vastergotland]
#120214
10/07/09 02:27 PM
10/07/09 02:27 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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What about you guys try to relate all this a little less to the novel-sized threads from before and a little more to what the linked sermonettes or others from the same source acctually says? Good idea. Here's what he wrote: ". . . cleanliness in Christ must precede christian character perfection." What does he mean? In what sense is cleanliness and character perfection different?
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: asygo]
#120215
10/07/09 02:45 PM
10/07/09 02:45 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Rosangela and Arnold, when do you think God justifies sinners - before or after the crucifixion of their old man habits and practices? Sometimes before, sometimes after. The crucifixion of the "old man habits and practices" is not the determining factor in justification. The FW 100 quote illustrates it perfectly: God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100) Before justification happens, God requires crucifixion of the old man spirit. When one fully surrenders, whether or not he has full knowledge of every bad habit, he is justified. To remain justified, one must remain fully surrendered to God. And when one is fully surrendered to God, he will follow Him wherever He goes. That is the ultimate motivation of the true believer - to be with God always. And how does that look from the outside? Continual obedience. But that can only happen if one is fully surrendered and justified. Hence, cleanliness of heart (in Christ) precedes cleansing from every bad habit and practice. Arnold, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying sinners are justified and saved in their sins and then they gradually work on outgrowing their sinful habits and practices. Whereas Ellen wrote, "The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300) "Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." (1SM 397) Elsewhere she wrote, "One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ." {SC 29.1} She confirms this insight (i.e. sinful habits and practices must be confessed and crucified before God can justify and save sinners) in the following passages: We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. (5T 47)
But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defective character traits] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. (RH 10-5-1897)
You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. (SC 49)
In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ has given a definition of true sanctification. He lived a life of holiness. He was an object lesson of what His followers are to be. We are to be crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and then quickened by His Spirit. Then we are filled with His life. (3SM 202)
The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. (DA 172)
In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then “the righteousness of the law” will “be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: “O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day.” Psalm 119:97. (GC 468)
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120226
10/07/09 04:32 PM
10/07/09 04:32 PM
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OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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What about you guys try to relate all this a little less to the novel-sized threads from before and a little more to what the linked sermonettes or others from the same source acctually says? Good idea. Here's what he wrote: ". . . cleanliness in Christ must precede christian character perfection." What does he mean? In what sense is cleanliness and character perfection different? Acctually, that is what I transcribed from the youtube file. Had it been in written form I would have quickly cut and paste the following explanation of what he means. Alas, it isnt so easy and therefore I again ask you to look at the original and then we can discuss what you think of the full presentation.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: vastergotland]
#120248
10/08/09 03:16 AM
10/08/09 03:16 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I believe cleanliness in Christ happens when we crucify our old man habits and practices. Then we must work to maintain it in Christ while at same time daily maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. This is the state Jesus wants us to "stay in".
He seems to think crucifying our old man habits and practices happens gradually sometime after Jesus declares us legally "clean".
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: vastergotland]
#120259
10/08/09 06:22 AM
10/08/09 06:22 AM
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What about you guys try to relate all this a little less to the novel-sized threads from before and a little more to what the linked sermonettes or others from the same source acctually says? I found Asscherick's Sermonettes refreshing. But the coments here . . . But maybe you did " "egg one on" just a little!
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: crater]
#120260
10/08/09 11:19 AM
10/08/09 11:19 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014
Veteran Member
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
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Yes crater, also known as trolling and forbidden on many forums. _____
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120261
10/08/09 12:53 PM
10/08/09 12:53 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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He seems to think crucifying our old man habits and practices happens gradually sometime after Jesus declares us legally "clean". Mike, The text is not even speaking about justification at the beginning of the Christian walk. It's speaking about justification after we have committed sins along our Christian walk. Christ says that "he who has bathed [was justified at the beginning of his Christian walk] does not need to wash, except for his feet" [needs Christ's justifying grace again after having been led into evil]. Christ refers to the latter when He says, "You are clean." We are considered perfect in Christ before we are perfect in our behavior.
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: gordonb1]
#120262
10/08/09 02:41 PM
10/08/09 02:41 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Yes crater, also known as trolling and forbidden on many forums. _____ Well, Gordon, that does not sound so gracious. I think Vaster accomplished exactly what he knew he would by speaking so teasingly at the start of this thread. Those who took the bait--got hooked! I watched the first one, and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a blessing. Had Vaster not teased me into it, I doubt I would have taken the time to see it. So, I appreciated the "trolling"... Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: Rosangela]
#120263
10/08/09 02:57 PM
10/08/09 02:57 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Rosangela, I agree that the passage is addressing sins committed after accepting Jesus as Savior. Such ongoing repentance and forgiveness is, unfortunately, all to common. However, Jesus envisioned the end of sinning and repenting. Grace and cleansing are not substitutes for ceasing from sin and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. I like how Ellen describes it in the following passage: At the words, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with Me," Peter surrendered his pride and self-will. He could not endure the thought of separation from Christ; that would have been death to him. "Not my feet only," he said, "but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit." {DA 646.2}
These words mean more than bodily cleanliness. Christ is still speaking of the higher cleansing as illustrated by the lower. He who came from the bath was clean, but the sandaled feet soon became dusty, and again needed to be washed. So Peter and his brethren had been washed in the great fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. Christ acknowledged them as His. But temptation had led them into evil, and they still needed His cleansing grace. When Jesus girded Himself with a towel to wash the dust from their feet, He desired by that very act to wash the alienation, jealousy, and pride from their hearts. This was of far more consequence than the washing of their dusty feet. With the spirit they then had, not one of them was prepared for communion with Christ. Until brought into a state of humility and love, they were not prepared to partake of the paschal supper, or to share in the memorial service which Christ was about to institute. Their hearts must be cleansed. Pride and self-seeking create dissension and hatred, but all this Jesus washed away in washing their feet. A change of feeling was brought about. Looking upon them, Jesus could say, "Ye are clean." Now there was union of heart, love for one another. They had become humble and teachable. Except Judas, each was ready to concede to another the highest place. Now with subdued and grateful hearts they could receive Christ's words. {DA 646.3}
Like Peter and his brethren, we too have been washed in the blood of Christ, yet often through contact with evil the heart's purity is soiled. We must come to Christ for His cleansing grace. Peter shrank from bringing his soiled feet in contact with the hands of his Lord and Master; but how often we bring our sinful, polluted hearts in contact with the heart of Christ! How grievous to Him is our evil temper, our vanity and pride! Yet all our infirmity and defilement we must bring to Him. He alone can wash us clean. We are not prepared for communion with Him unless cleansed by His efficacy. {DA 646.4}
Jesus said to the disciples, "Ye are clean, but not all." He had washed the feet of Judas, but the heart had not been yielded to Him. It was not purified. Judas had not submitted himself to Christ. {DA 649.1} The act of washing their feet yielded simultaneous results, namely, the cessation of sinning and the resumption of righteousness. Jesus did not declare them legally clean or sinless before it was indeed a fact. Justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (righteousness) are realities that happen simultaneously. One is the reflection of the other. Jesus declared them legally righteous because they were in reality righteous. Pastor Asscherick made it clear in his message he believes Jesus declared them legally sinless though in reality they were very sinful and defective. Ellen, however, said the act of washing their feet melted their hearts and restored them to the righteousness they forfeited when they gave themselves over to "alienation, jealousy, and pride". Jesus cannot declare someone legally clean while they are in throes of sinning against God and man. If such a thing were possible Jesus need not have died on the cross. He could have simply declared everyone legally sinless and ended the GC then and there. Justification is not a substitute for sanctification; instead, it is an acknowledgment of it. PS - Of course I'm referring to known sins as opposed to sins of ignorance. The question, however, is, What constitutes a sin of ignorance? Were the disciples ignorant of the sins for which Jesus washed their feet? Were they clueless of the sins they were guilty of committing? No! No one can commit such sins without realizing they are guilty of wrongdoing. True, over time people harden their hearts beyond the ability to feel guilt and shame and are able to indulge such sins without ill effect; however, this insight does not disprove the point.
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Re: D Asscherick Sermonettes
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120270
10/08/09 08:00 PM
10/08/09 08:00 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Pastor Asscherick made it clear in his message he believes Jesus declared them legally sinless though in reality they were very sinful and defective. I think he refers to the fact that Jesus said, "You are clean" before the disciples forsook Him and Peter denied Him. The point is, He knew they would do that.
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