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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120342
10/11/09 02:32 PM
10/11/09 02:32 PM
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M: Tom, the quote from Ty you posted did not address my questions. Nor did it explain your point of view in light of my questions. I still have no idea what you think will cause resurrected sinners to suffer and to die. You seem to be saying comprehending the contrast between their character and God's is what will cause them to suffer and to die. If so, why do you think they are capable of comprehending this contrast? And, why do you think it will result in suffering and death? Also, why do you think they will be able to survive revisiting their sins without dying prematurely? What will prevent them from dying after revisiting their first sin? PS - If you're going to insist Ty's quote explains your view and answers my questions you owe it to the rest of us to address the following concerns: Taking a closer look at Ty's insights:
Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin?
“The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” Why doesn’t this kind of suffering happen when we sin?
“A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul.” Why is it possible to harden our hearts beyond being able to suffer?
“. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? How and why will it be any different than the day they committed them? Why will they suffer so sorely for their sins in judgment but didn’t when they committed them? How will God make them perfectly conscious of every sin in a way that will drastically affect them differently than it did when they committed them?
“The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? The reason we do not die the instant we sin is because God is mercifully veiling the radiant firelight of His presence. It is this light that will cause the wicked to suffer and to die.
“He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Jesus made pardon possible when He paid our sin debt of death; however, He forgives no one until they repent and obey God. Forgiveness benefits no one until they repent and obey God. Only then can they escape the crushing weight of their guilt and shame.
“They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed.” Again, how and why will revisiting their sins in judgment affect them differently than when they committed them? Why do you think sin hardened hearts are capable of such suffering?
“The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin.” Again, what makes you think sin hardened sinners possess the ability to have such an experience?
“The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God will resurrect sinners knowing they will have such a horrible experience? Also, why do you think they can physically survive such an experience for several days? What prevents them from dying prematurely (before they finish revisiting their sins)? T: This is too much, MM. Try asking a couple of questions, please, and I'll address those. Do you not understand what Ty was saying? I am merely responding to what you posted. I don't think it's too much to ask you to address the questions your post stimulated. Ty's quote does not clearly explain things. It begs the questions I posted. If the insights he presented mean anything at all then they are worth studying. If not, why bother posting it? PS - The questions above deal with the crux of the matter. Refusing to address them hinders any real discussion and any hope of understanding your view.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120368
10/11/09 10:07 PM
10/11/09 10:07 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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[quote=Tom]Regarding the questions, there's too many to address. Hopefully what Ty wrote is clear. Could you answer just this one question: What kind of "kindness, mercy, and love" would need to be "terrible?" Blessings, Green Cochoa. What? Am I to presume you do not have an answer for why you believe what you believe on this point? or am I to presume my question is so muddled as to render it unintelligible?
Perhaps I can rephrase slightly:
What "kindness, mercy, and love" do you see in Ty's statement? "The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin. The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh. (Ty Gibson; See With New Eyes)"
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. I had no idea what you were talking about until you explained it. Ty writes, "The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin." This is similar to the following, "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Ty is arguing that what the wicked suffer is a natural consequence of their sin, not a punishment God arbitrarily imposes upon them. If God were imposing a cruel punishment upon the wicked, such as by burning them alive, that would not be exercising the principles of mercy, kindness and love, but Ty is suggesting that it is God's love which causes their suffering. Their suffering is caused by what their own sin has done to their character.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120369
10/11/09 10:12 PM
10/11/09 10:12 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Tom, the quote from Ty you posted did not address my questions. Nor did it explain your point of view in light of my questions. I still have no idea what you think will cause resurrected sinners to suffer and to die. You seem to be saying comprehending the contrast between their character and God's is what will cause them to suffer and to die. If so, why do you think they are capable of comprehending this contrast? And, why do you think it will result in suffering and death? Also, why do you think they will be able to survive revisiting their sins without dying prematurely? What will prevent them from dying after revisiting their first sin? PS - If you're going to insist Ty's quote explains your view and answers my questions you owe it to the rest of us to address the following concerns: Taking a closer look at Ty's insights:
Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin?
“The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” Why doesn’t this kind of suffering happen when we sin?
“A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul.” Why is it possible to harden our hearts beyond being able to suffer?
“. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? How and why will it be any different than the day they committed them? Why will they suffer so sorely for their sins in judgment but didn’t when they committed them? How will God make them perfectly conscious of every sin in a way that will drastically affect them differently than it did when they committed them?
“The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? The reason we do not die the instant we sin is because God is mercifully veiling the radiant firelight of His presence. It is this light that will cause the wicked to suffer and to die.
“He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Jesus made pardon possible when He paid our sin debt of death; however, He forgives no one until they repent and obey God. Forgiveness benefits no one until they repent and obey God. Only then can they escape the crushing weight of their guilt and shame.
“They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed.” Again, how and why will revisiting their sins in judgment affect them differently than when they committed them? Why do you think sin hardened hearts are capable of such suffering?
“The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin.” Again, what makes you think sin hardened sinners possess the ability to have such an experience?
“The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God will resurrect sinners knowing they will have such a horrible experience? Also, why do you think they can physically survive such an experience for several days? What prevents them from dying prematurely (before they finish revisiting their sins)? T: This is too much, MM. Try asking a couple of questions, please, and I'll address those. Do you not understand what Ty was saying? I am merely responding to what you posted. I don't think it's too much to ask you to address the questions your post stimulated. Ty's quote does not clearly explain things. It begs the questions I posted. If the insights he presented mean anything at all then they are worth studying. If not, why bother posting it? PS - The questions above deal with the crux of the matter. Refusing to address them hinders any real discussion and any hope of understanding your view. You asked 14 questions, MM. If you'll pair that down to a couple, I'd be happy to respond. However, if you don't understand what Ty wrote, I don't think you'd understand what I said either, as he explains the concepts more clearly than I do.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120372
10/11/09 11:45 PM
10/11/09 11:45 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Ty is arguing that what the wicked suffer is a natural consequence of their sin, not a punishment God arbitrarily imposes upon them. If God were imposing a cruel punishment upon the wicked, such as by burning them alive, that would not be exercising the principles of mercy, kindness and love, but Ty is suggesting that it is God's love which causes their suffering. Their suffering is caused by what their own sin has done to their character. As we know, "the wages of sin is death." The more sinful a person is, the more out-of-tune with God. How is it, then, if "sin kills," that the greater the sinfulness, the greater the duration of their punishment? The opposite should be true, no? If sin were like a bacteria, for example, the heavier the infestation the quicker the demise. Why do you believe the opposite will actually be the case for the lost? What determines the length of their judgment? BTW, from my perspective it might be more precise to say "Their suffering is determined by what their own sin has done to their character." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120375
10/12/09 01:05 AM
10/12/09 01:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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As we know, "the wages of sin is death." The more sinful a person is, the more out-of-tune with God. How is it, then, if "sin kills," that the greater the sinfulness, the greater the duration of their punishment? The opposite should be true, no? The more sin, the more suffering when that sin is revealed. If sin were like a bacteria, for example, the heavier the infestation the quicker the demise. It's not like a bacteria. Sins consist of thoughts and decisions one has made. When these are brought to light, suffering results. The more there is to bring to light, the more suffering. Why do you believe the opposite will actually be the case for the lost? What determines the length of their judgment? BTW, from my perspective it might be more precise to say "Their suffering is determined by what their own sin has done to their character." You're saying "determined" as opposed to "caused." Yes, this is an area of difference. I see that sin causes suffering and death. You see that God causes these things. Something I still don't understand is why you think God is capable of burning people alive. His character was revealed by Jesus Christ. Do you get the idea Jesus Christ would burn someone alive if that person didn't follow Him? When it was suggested that He do so, He responded, "You know not what spirit you are of." I don't understand why, as soon as the thought that God would burn people alive, was introduced into your mind, you wouldn't immediately reject it. Especially given the counsel we have that the enemy is specifically trying to make God appear to be cruel. What do you see the role of the righteous to be during the 1,000 years? Do you perceive that they will be determining for how long the lost will burn?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120388
10/12/09 02:42 PM
10/12/09 02:42 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Ty is arguing that what the wicked suffer is a natural consequence of their sin . . . Why, then, doesn’t it happen in the absence of God? Why is the physical presence of God necessary in order for it to happen? T: . . . Ty is suggesting that it is God's love which causes their suffering. Please post an inspired passage to substantiate this idea.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120391
10/12/09 03:03 PM
10/12/09 03:03 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Tom, the quote from Ty you posted did not address my questions. Nor did it explain your point of view in light of my questions. I still have no idea what you think will cause resurrected sinners to suffer and to die. You seem to be saying comprehending the contrast between their character and God's is what will cause them to suffer and to die. If so, why do you think they are capable of comprehending this contrast? And, why do you think it will result in suffering and death? Also, why do you think they will be able to survive revisiting their sins without dying prematurely? What will prevent them from dying after revisiting their first sin? PS - If you're going to insist Ty's quote explains your view and answers my questions you owe it to the rest of us to address the following concerns: Taking a closer look at Ty's insights:
Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin?
“The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” Why doesn’t this kind of suffering happen when we sin?
“A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul.” Why is it possible to harden our hearts beyond being able to suffer?
“. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? How and why will it be any different than the day they committed them? Why will they suffer so sorely for their sins in judgment but didn’t when they committed them? How will God make them perfectly conscious of every sin in a way that will drastically affect them differently than it did when they committed them?
“The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? The reason we do not die the instant we sin is because God is mercifully veiling the radiant firelight of His presence. It is this light that will cause the wicked to suffer and to die.
“He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Jesus made pardon possible when He paid our sin debt of death; however, He forgives no one until they repent and obey God. Forgiveness benefits no one until they repent and obey God. Only then can they escape the crushing weight of their guilt and shame.
“They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed.” Again, how and why will revisiting their sins in judgment affect them differently than when they committed them? Why do you think sin hardened hearts are capable of such suffering?
“The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin.” Again, what makes you think sin hardened sinners possess the ability to have such an experience?
“The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God will resurrect sinners knowing they will have such a horrible experience? Also, why do you think they can physically survive such an experience for several days? What prevents them from dying prematurely (before they finish revisiting their sins)? T: This is too much, MM. Try asking a couple of questions, please, and I'll address those. Do you not understand what Ty was saying? M: I am merely responding to what you posted. I don't think it's too much to ask you to address the questions your post stimulated. Ty's quote does not clearly explain things. It begs the questions I posted. If the insights he presented mean anything at all then they are worth studying. If not, why bother posting it? PS - The questions above deal with the crux of the matter. Refusing to address them hinders any real discussion and any hope of understanding your view. T: You asked 14 questions, MM. If you'll pair that down to a couple, I'd be happy to respond. However, if you don't understand what Ty wrote, I don't think you'd understand what I said either, as he explains the concepts more clearly than I do. Tom, I'm pretty sure I understand what you and Ty are advocating. However, I'm asking questions to confirm my suspicions. Here are the questions paired down. You two seem to be saying resurrected sinners will, as each sin is revisited in judgment, comprehend the contrast between their character and God's. Such experiential knowledge will cause them to suffer and to die. Ty wrote: 1. Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin? 2. “The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” What prevents this from happening the instant we sin? 3. “. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? 4. “The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? 5. “He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? 6. “The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God would permit such a horrible thing to happen?
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120394
10/12/09 03:30 PM
10/12/09 03:30 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:Ty is arguing that what the wicked suffer is a natural consequence of their sin . . .
M:Why, then, doesn’t it happen in the absence of God?
Why is the physical presence of God necessary in order for it to happen? It's not a physical problem. It's not possible for God to be physically absent.
Quote:
T: . . . Ty is suggesting that it is God's love which causes their suffering.
Please post an inspired passage to substantiate this idea.
I'm sure Ty had passages to support what he wrote. Weren't there any quoted?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120395
10/12/09 03:42 PM
10/12/09 03:42 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, I'm pretty sure I understand what you and Ty are advocating. However, I'm asking questions to confirm my suspicions. Here are the questions paired down.
You two seem to be saying resurrected sinners will, as each sin is revisited in judgment, comprehend the contrast between their character and God's. Such experiential knowledge will cause them to suffer and to die. Ty wrote:
1. Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin? Not sin, but the record of sin in the conscience. What Ty meant is that the only way to alleviate the suffering that sin would cause by being revealed when God's character of love is made known to the sinner is to have it forgiven. He's saying one of two things will happen: forgiveness or suffering. 2. “The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” What prevents this from happening the instant we sin? In mercy, God doesn't allow this to happen in this lifetime, so there is an opportunity to develop character. It's like when EGW writes that if we had to bear the guilt of our sin it would crush us. Christ bears the guilt of our sin for all, including those who reject Him, during this lifetime, to give the opportunity to develop character. DA 764 speaks about this as well. After developing character, in the judgment people receive the results of their choice. To those who have rebelled against God, He is a consuming fire, and His glory (character of love) destroys them, as Ty explained. 3. “. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? "The Great Controversy" talks about this, in the part right after the wicked stop attacking the city as Jesus Christ is lifted up. 4. “The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Well, here's the answer to your question #2! Please refer to what Ty wrote for his support of the idea. 5. “He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Please refer to what Ty wrote for his support of the idea. 6. “The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God would permit such a horrible thing to happen? How would He prevent it? People receive the results of their choice. He could only prevent it by not allowing people to receive what they have chosen. Free will is very important to God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120405
10/12/09 05:19 PM
10/12/09 05:19 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Tom, thank you for answering my questions. I hear you saying the loving attributes of God's character will slay sinners. They will suffer more pain and agony than if they were burned alive. This limited explanation, however, does not address the following concerns: 1. Why are the wicked able to suffer unimaginable pain and agony in judgment whereas before they weren't? Who or what will make the difference? 2. Since one sin is enough to cause death, why are the wicked able to endure revisiting millions of sins without dying prematurely? Who or what will prevent them from dying before they revisit their last sin? 3. What role does literal fire play in the "punishment" of the wicked? See quote below. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}
"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1} In light of this passage, what are "the fearful consequences of sin"? And, what role does literal fire play?
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