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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120534
10/15/09 04:19 PM
10/15/09 04:19 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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GC, I don't think Tom believes it will be a painless death. He believes it will exceed the agony of being burned alive.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120538
10/15/09 06:42 PM
10/15/09 06:42 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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GC, I don't think Tom believes it will be a painless death. He believes it will exceed the agony of being burned alive. I agree with this assessment. Not painless, but agony worse than being burned alive. All made possible by God raising them from the peace of death, and showing them His glory.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#120556
10/15/09 10:37 PM
10/15/09 10:37 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Sort of contradicts Tom's kind and loving and merciful view of judgment, doesn't it!
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120564
10/16/09 03:08 AM
10/16/09 03:08 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Kland, your first comment is absurd and does not deserve an answer. However, according to Tom the agony and anguish of the wicked will exceed being burned alive. Do you consider this "too violent"? Are you misrepresenting my position on purpose, or is it accidental? In either case, please do what I've asked you to do on countless occasions, which is to quote something I've actually said. Please bear in mind Ellen White's counsel that we should not look to make a brother to be an offender for a word. That is, you appear to me to be deliberately looking for a way to put the most negative representation possible and the ideas that I'm sharing. I believe that God does absolutely nothing with the intention or purpose for causing the wicked to suffer, and that He is in no way responsible for their suffering, in the judgment or any other time. Their suffering is completely against God's will, and only because they refuse to accept God's will.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#120565
10/16/09 03:12 AM
10/16/09 03:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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GC, I don't think Tom believes it will be a painless death. He believes it will exceed the agony of being burned alive. I agree with this assessment. Not painless, but agony worse than being burned alive. All made possible by God raising them from the peace of death, and showing them His glory. Just to be clear, I disagree with both MM's characterization of my position, and with your comment here. It appears that there is a profound desire to express things in a way that has God responsible for the suffering of the wicked. I don't understand this idea, nor the motivation to express it, and I by no means share it.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#120568
10/16/09 03:43 AM
10/16/09 03:43 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Just to be clear, I disagree with both MM's characterization of my position, and with your comment here. It appears that there is a profound desire to express things in a way that has God responsible for the suffering of the wicked. I don't understand this idea, nor the motivation to express it, and I by no means share it. Was there something inaccurate about my statement? Not painless, but agony worse than being burned alive. All made possible by God raising them from the peace of death, and showing them His glory. Let's dissect that and see if you disagree with any of it. I was fully confident that I was accurately representing your view. But if not, I want to find out where I was wrong. Not painlessDo you believe it will be painful for the lost? agony worse than being burned aliveDo you believe the agony of the lost will be worse than physical fire? made possible by God raising them from the peace of deathCould any of this happen to the wicked if God does not raise them from the dead? made possible by God showing them His gloryCould any of this happen to the wicked if God does not show them His glory? Based on your posts on various threads, I expect you will answer Yes to the first two, and No to the last two. Is that correct? Again, the "profound desire" is to express things as they are.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#120571
10/16/09 11:08 AM
10/16/09 11:08 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:Just to be clear, I disagree with both MM's characterization of my position, and with your comment here. It appears that there is a profound desire to express things in a way that has God responsible for the suffering of the wicked. I don't understand this idea, nor the motivation to express it, and I by no means share it.
A:Was there something inaccurate about my statement? I think it was either misleading, or apt to be so misunderstood. You wrote: Not painless, but agony worse than being burned alive. All made possible by God raising them from the peace of death, and showing them His glory. As stated, the implication looks to be that God is responsible for their agony. I was wishing to make clear that I don't believe this is the case. If you also believe God is not responsible, I think the statement could be better worded to make clear that this is what you believe.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120574
10/16/09 12:17 PM
10/16/09 12:17 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
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On the contrary, no one here is advocating a violent God. That is not the point. However, to refuse the facts in the case, which are that sin will be strongly dealt with on God's part, is to refuse to accept that sin is bad enough to warrant such measures.
"However", "such measures"? What such measures? Do you mean acting violently? If I believe sin is not so bad, then I would never feel God is justified in destroying sinners. If, however, I have learned to hate sin as God hates it, I will see that God is but dealing justly with it.
"Destroying sinners", "dealing justly"? It sounds to me like you contradicted your statement that no one is advocating a violent God. Could you explain?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120575
10/16/09 12:22 PM
10/16/09 12:22 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
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Kland, your first comment is absurd and does not deserve an answer. However, according to Tom the agony and anguish of the wicked will exceed being burned alive. Do you consider this "too violent"? Tom said God is not violent. You are in disagreement with him, suggest quotes which indicate violence, say God directly plays a part in the wicked's suffering. Then, your misrepresentation of Tom's comments state it being worse than being burned alive. Then: Sort of contradicts Tom's kind and loving and merciful view of judgment, doesn't it!
With exclamation point. With ecstasy. So, I don't see how my question that you feel we don't have a violent enough view of God is absurd. It seems a very reasonable conclusion. You strongly disagree with "Tom's kind and loving and merciful view of judgment". I'm not sure what else one would conclude. I'm just trying to understand what you are saying. Could you concisely state what you disagree with? Finish the sentence as you think I should have regarding our view of God: MM, I hear you saying that Tom and I don't ......(have what kind of view about God)..... The EW quote you posted does not address the final judgment. It is dealing with the Second Advent. I'm a little confused here, too. Would you be suggesting that God is violent towards sinners at the Second Advent, but not at the final judgment?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#120576
10/16/09 12:31 PM
10/16/09 12:31 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
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Was there something inaccurate about my statement? I would agree that it was misleading and gives the wrong implication of what Tom was saying. It was the way you said it, and I think the key is, "All made possible".
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 10/19/09 04:39 AM. Reason: Edited for off-topic content
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