Do you think God's physical presence is necessary for resurrected sinners to experience the pain and agony you describe? If not, why not?


Will sinners in judgment suffer for the same reasons we suffer now?


What will be the cause of death? Shock? Myocardial infarction? Takotsubo cardiomyopathy?


Suffering = physical pain and emotional agony
Die = heart stops beating
Light of the glory of God = radiant light


Do you agree the quotes above are referring to literal light? If not, why not?

Tom,

1) Would you agree with Ellen White that the sinners have no choice about whether or not to suffer the consequences for their sins?

2) Would you agree that God's wrath is not appeased until the sinners have perished?

3) Would you agree that Ellen White says the second death will be worse than the first?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The choice is God's. If He chose not to resurrect them they wouldn't suffer and die. If He chose not to make them revisit their sins in judgment they wouldn't suffer and die. If He chose to veil His radiant light they wouldn't suffer and die. If He chose to allow them access to the tree of life they wouldn't suffer and die.

As has been repeatedly explained, no. It doesn't appear to me that you're really wanting to understand what Ty said. Why would you quote just this one sentence? If you look at the paragraph (or at least the previous sentence!), it should be clear what Ty's point is.



What do you mean by "physical presence"? As I've repeatedly explained, I believe the issue is primarily spiritual, not physical.



This isn't a well phrased question, IMO. I'll answer "sometimes," and leave it at that for now.



I don't really have anything to add to what DA 764 says.



I disagree with your definitions. Since your questions rest upon what I believe are false assumptions, I can only answer that I disagree with the assumptions inherent in your questions.



In the case of Moses, a veil was needed by the Israelites to cover their eyes. Moses had spent time with God. If this were referring to Moses' having been with a literal light, what is written doesn't make sense, because if one spends time with a bright, literal light, when one returns from the visit, it is not necessary for others to protect their eyes. It doesn't matter how bright the light was that one was with.

So it seems evident to me that more than simply physical light is being dealt with.

A really simple way to see this is the case, MM, is to consider the judgment of blind people. If it were simply a matter of a physical light, it would have no impact on them.

The issues are not physical, MM, but spiritual.

I wouldn't put what she said the way you are. I agree with what she said.



Yes.





Of course it's worse. Simply considering the cross make this clear.

Ellen White makes the point that the choice is theirs:



In GC 543, she writes their exclusion from heaven is "voluntary with themselves."

Tom,

Your methodology surprises me. You tell us we should read Ty's quotation with context while repeatedly quoting a certain sentence from Ellen White apart from its context. If we are going to play fair here, it would seem that either we should be allowed to do as you do, or you should conform to the same standards of context that we prefer. I suggest we use context for both...deal?

Sinners do have a choice about avoiding the consequences, as you have said. But I believe that occurs in a time period which we are not here discussing! (Again, "context the problem" as the Chinese would phrase it.)



This implies that those who do not "flee to Christ" have no escape from the consequences of their sins, would you agree?

Yet perhaps I need to ask the question thus: "Do you believe the sinners have made their final choice, and that their probation has already been shut, when they are raised in the second resurrection?"


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Speaking of Achan, Mrs. White applies his form of confession to that of sinners in their final moments.

Tom,

After the second resurrection, do sinners still have a choice? Can they who are lost then confess and avert their judgment? Do they have a choice then?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The only thing I know is you disagree with my statement. I still have no idea what you believe. Do you think the hotter and more terrible internal fire will cause less physical pain and mental agony than if they were literally lit on fire?


Do you believe God is a physical being? If so, do believe He must be physically present (as opposed to physically somewhere else out of sight) for resurrected sinners to experience the physical pain and mental agony you describe?


Do sinners suffer now for the same reasons resurrected sinners will suffer in judgment (referring to the physical pain and mental agony you describe)? If not, why not. What makes the difference?


“. . . His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. . . the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love”. I agree. God will destroy sinners and thereby exterminate sin. But this quote doesn’t explain the mechanics. It doesn’t describe how the light of God’s glory will destroy them. Ty says comprehending the contrast between their sins and God’s character, as He forces them to revisit their sins, will cause them to experience unimaginable suffering. But he comes short of saying it will cause them to die. He leaves it hanging, unanswered. I believe the radiant firelight of God will cause them to suffer and to die. What do you believe? Do you think they will die of heart failure caused by mental agony (takotsubo cardiomyopathy)? If not, what do you believe? None of the quotes you have posted answer this question.


That’s not all you can do, Tom. The forum rules give you permission to actually state what you believe. Do you really disagree with the first two definitions? And, are you absolutely certain “the light of the glory of God” never, ever refers to the light that radiates from God? Take another look at the following inspired insights:


Are you absolutely positive the light described above is NOT literal light? Are you sure God does not glow with a divine, heavenly light?


What do you do think caused the Jews so much pain when they looked upon the light reflected on Moses’ face? Ellen wrote:

So sacred and so glorious is the law, that when Moses returned from the holy mount, where he had been with God, receiving from His hand the tables of stone, his face reflected a glory upon which the people could not look without pain, and Moses was obliged to cover his face with a veil. {1SM 237.1}

The glory that shone on the face of Moses was a reflection of the righteousness of Christ in the law. The law itself would have no glory, only that in it Christ is embodied. It has no power to save. It is lusterless only as in it Christ is represented as full of righteousness and truth. {1SM 237.2}

They tell him that they cannot look into his face, for the radiant light in his countenance is exceedingly painful to them. His face is like the sun; they cannot look upon it. When Moses finds out the difficulty, he covers his face with a veil. He does not plead that the light and glory upon his face is the reflection of God's glory that He placed upon him, and that the people must bear it; but he covers his glory. The sinfulness of the people make it painful to behold his glorified face. So will it be when the saints of God are glorified just previous to the second appearing of our Lord. The wicked will retire and shrink away from the sight, for the glory in the countenances of the saints will pain them. But all this glory upon Moses, all this divine stamp seen upon God's humble servant, is forgotten. {3T 354.3}


I believe the unveiled radiant firelight of God destroys animate and inanimate things. Anything corrupted or contaminated by sin cannot withstand His radiant firelight. Unlike you, I do not believe the resurrected wicked are capable of comprehending the conttrast between their sins and God's character in a way that will result in them suffering the physical pain and mental agony you describe. They are sin-hardened and, therefore, incapable of the experience you dscribe.

By the way, in light of your view of judgment, how will the deaf and blind make out? If they cannot hear or see the panoramic representation of their sins on the big screen in the sky, how will they experience the physical pain and mental agony you describe? I suspect God will resurrect them with all their senses restored.

Tom, please explain why you agree or disagree with the statements above. Thank you.