God does not take away anyone's power of choice.

My point was what I said, that God does not take away anyone's power of choice.

The flame which Ty spoke of which burns more terribly is the flame of love. Ty wasn't making an argument in regards to the physical agony of being set on fire.

T: So when you say "the light of the glory fo God" and "die" I want to know if you have in mind what you understand these things to mean, or what I do.


T: I disagree with your definitions. Since your questions rest upon what I believe are false assumptions, I can only answer that I disagree with the assumptions inherent in your questions.

His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun. {FLB 349.3}

The light of the sun will be superseded by a radiance which is not painfully dazzling, yet which immeasurably surpasses the brightness of our noontide. The glory of God and the Lamb floods the Holy City with unfading light. The redeemed walk in the sunless glory of perpetual day. {FLB 363.4}

Christ, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of His divinity and came to live as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator. {MH 419.1}

In their conscious guilt, feeling themselves still under the divine displeasure, they could not endure the heavenly light, which, had they been obedient to God, would have filled them with joy. There is fear in guilt. The soul that is free from sin will not wish to hide from the light of heaven. {PP 329.5}

M: Do you agree the quotes above are referring to literal light? If not, why not?

T: In the case of Moses, a veil was needed by the Israelites to cover their eyes. Moses had spent time with God. If this were referring to Moses' having been with a literal light, what is written doesn't make sense, because if one spends time with a bright, literal light, when one returns from the visit, it is not necessary for others to protect their eyes. It doesn't matter how bright the light was that one was with.

T: So it seems evident to me that more than simply physical light is being dealt with. A really simple way to see this is the case, MM, is to consider the judgment of blind people. If it were simply a matter of a physical light, it would have no impact on them. The issues are not physical, MM, but spiritual.

You made the following statements regarding the condition of the unsaved following the second resurrection. You further made these statements to contradict the interpretation of Ellen White in which she implies that the wicked will have no choice about whether or not to receive their punishment--they will be punished irrespective of any further choice they might make.

T:God does not take away anyone's power of choice.

My point was what I said, that God does not take away anyone's power of choice.

GC:Since you so strongly believe that God will never remove the power of choice from the sinner (which I agree with, but do not apply as you do),

and since you apply it to the judgment (which I most certainly do not), how is it that, in your view, the wicked will be offered a choice as to whether or not they should be punished, and/or how much punishment they should receive?

T:The flame which Ty spoke of which burns more terribly is the flame of love. Ty wasn't making an argument in regards to the physical agony of being set on fire.

GC:How much does it hurt the wicked to be loved? Oh, love doesn't hurt? Then why will they die?

Next you'll ask why anything needs to hurt--since God would not be "cruel." I then ask you this: What does "suffer" mean? You have agreed that the wicked will suffer. What do you believe this means?

I'm not accustomed to using colloquialisms, but many people call hell "the hot place." It sounds like you are describing it more as "the warm fuzzy place."

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
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were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.

"The law is . . . a practical explanation of what love looks like in real life."

“Guilt is not arbitrarily imposed by God . . .”

“He made us with the capacity to feel guilt as a merciful and wise deterrent to sin . . .”

“Pain is a built-in mercy mechanism intended to aid in the preservation of life.”

“If you continue in sin, you will die,” for “sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

“In holy hatred of sin and unrelenting love for the sinner, the Father handed over His Son to bear the guilt inherent in our sin and to endure the selfish, murderous rage lashing out from our sin.”

T: So when you say "the light of the glory of God" and "die" I want to know if you have in mind what you understand these things to mean, or what I do.

MM:Suffering = physical pain and emotional agony
Die = heart stops beating
Light of the glory of God = radiant light

T: I disagree with your definitions. Since your questions rest upon what I believe are false assumptions, I can only answer that I disagree with the assumptions inherent in your questions.

M:Do you really disagree with the first two definitions? And, are you absolutely certain “the light of the glory of God” never, ever refers to the light that radiates from God? Take another look at the following inspired insights:

T: So it seems evident to me that more than simply physical light is being dealt with. A really simple way to see this is the case, MM, is to consider the judgment of blind people. If it were simply a matter of a physical light, it would have no impact on them. The issues are not physical, MM, but spiritual.

M:I believe the unveiled radiant firelight of God destroys animate and inanimate things. Anything corrupted or contaminated by sin cannot withstand His radiant firelight. Unlike you, I do not believe the resurrected wicked are capable of comprehending the conttrast between their sins and God's character in a way that will result in them suffering the physical pain and mental agony you describe. They are sin-hardened and, therefore, incapable of the experience you dscribe.

By the way, in light of your view of judgment, how will the deaf and blind make out? If they cannot hear or see the panoramic representation of their sins on the big screen in the sky, how will they experience the physical pain and mental agony you describe? I suspect God will resurrect them with all their senses restored.

The law demands love and righteousness. It condemns sinners. It demands death for sin. It shows no mercy. It pardons no one. Condemnation and capital punishment, vengeance and retribution, are expressions of God's love. "God's love has been expressed in His justice no less than in His mercy. {DA 762.3} "Love, no less than justice, demanded that God's judgments should put a check on sin. {PP 100.3} "It is the mingling of judgment and mercy that makes salvation full and complete. {6BC 1072.1} "In conversation with others dwell upon the mercy, goodness, and love of God instead of upon His strict judgment and justice. {4T 259.2}


But you seem to think God arbitrarily prevents it.


If God arbitrarily prevents it how can it serve its purpose?


The ability to feel pain is human; but right to inflict it is divine. “The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}


Sinning results in death because sinners do not have access to the tree of life. If sinning is truly the cause of death then it would happen regardless of the tree of life. “I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of Adam's family has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}


It was the hiding of His Father’s face that caused Jesus to suffer on the cross – not sin. Law and justice demand death for sin. The reason it is demanded is because it does not happen naturally. The fact sinners do not die when they sin is proof sin does not cause them to die. Since sin does not cause sinners to die, law and justice require it of God to punish and destroy them according to their sinfulness. In doing so God is not evil or vicious; rather, He is simply law abiding. It grieves God that choices and circumstances require Him to punish and destroy sinners. It loathes Him to punish and destroy sinners, but He does it for the good of the Universe.

" The spotless Son of God hung upon the cross, His flesh lacerated with stripes; those hands so often reached out in blessing, nailed to the wooden bars; those feet so tireless on ministries of love, spiked to the tree; that royal head pierced by the crown of thorns; those quivering lips shaped to the cry of woe. And all that He endured--the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face--speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise. He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee. He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

"God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

Please note that "guilt and punishment" are two separate aspects of judgment. They are not one and the same.

God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. {GC 541.3}

You are choosing to look at half of the picture here, whilst I look at it more completely.

God hates violence. Violence is sin. God hates sin. But just because God hates sin, and because God is loving and merciful, does not mean that He will not use His power and authority to put an end to sin.

"The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion." (EGW) She then contrasts this with the fact that even though God uses power and authority to do this, it will not be a breach of His character of love and mercy. I agree with this.

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)

Even though God forces a resolution to the conflict does not mean God has forced the will of any of His creatures. There is a difference.

When Mrs. White uses the word "judgment" in the above passage, I do not read "final judgment," but rather the sort of judgment often thought of as power of choice, or as reasoning. How do you interpret?

"All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."