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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12094
01/08/05 02:13 PM
01/08/05 02:13 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I don't mean to be a party-pooper, Boblee, but I am not convinced light is matter. But regarding the future I am convinced God knows it like watching a rerun, and that it doesn't rob us of our freedom to choose. There are many reasons I believe this, the main one being prophecy. God can foretell the future because He knows the future, intimnately and perfectly. Like you, though, I do not insist that others agree with this view of God's foreknowledge.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12095
01/08/05 10:27 PM
01/08/05 10:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Perhaps we should end our discussion with the following words of wisdom. And it might be best if we let them speak for themselves, without adding our own comments.
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
GC 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
I think Mike's SOP quotes deserves some kind of a response as they seem to be cut and dry quotes to me that should clearly answer the question of this topic.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12096
01/09/05 12:59 AM
01/09/05 12:59 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
GC 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
He asked me not to comment, so I didn't. But since you are a moderator, and thus outrank him, I'll respond as requested.
It is Mike's contention that the future is fixed, or determined, and it is mine that it is not. The first two statements appear to support his position, and the last one mine. Other statements which support my position are:
quote:
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)
quote:
He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril.
(DA 49)
quote:
It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). (COL 69)
quote:
Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people in giving to the world the message of mercy, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth, and the saints would have received their welcome into the city of God. (6T 450)
There are 7 statements to consider here. If the future is fixed, then the last 5 make no sense. If God set into motion events of which the inevitable result was sin, as Mike contends, then clearly God is responsible for sin. That contradicts statement #3.
The concept of risk is contrary to the concept of a fixed future. Clearly if the future is fixed, then there was no risk involved in sending Christ. The chance of Christ's success would have been 100%. That's risk-free. So a fixed future would contradict statements #4 and #5.
The idea that we can hasten Christ's coming is contrary to the idea of a fixed future. If the future is fixed, Christ's coming cannot be altered. That should be evident. Similarly, if Christ's coming cannot be altered, it makes no sense that He would have come earlier under certain conditions, since it's impossible that He could have come earlier. So this contradicts statements #6 and #7.
I believe there is no contradiction to statements #1 and #2 if the future is not fixed. God foresaw the possibility of sin from the beginning and made provision for it. But sin was in no sense inevitable, as statement #3 makes clear.
This statement brings out the principle I have in mind:
quote:
God's healing power runs all through nature. If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. (Ed. 113)
God provided the remedy in the sense that should the need arise, the remedy was ready.
Here's another statement which brings out that the fixed future idea doesn't make sense;
quote:
Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe...
Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. (EW 127)
This whole scene is completely unintelligible if it did not happen in real time. That is, if God knew from all eternity that man was destined to sin when he did, then the whole scene is simply play acting.
Plus there's a very important factor which may be a bit subtle. This is, why was God the Father hesitant? At fist glace we get the picture that Jesus loves us more than God, which is absurd. Yet we see Jesus saying, "send Me, send Me, send Me" and *finally* after much cajoling God finally relents and allows man to be saved. The angel relates it was a "struggle" to allow Christ to come.
Why? The reason is that it was a risk for Christ to come. If we understand that point, then the whole thing makes sense.
God knew sin could happen, and the plans were made for Christ to become incarnate and meet the risk of eternal loss should that be necessary. When it did become necessary, those plans we discussed. God decided to go ahead with the plan, although it was a struggle.
Again, if the future is fixed, the whole scene is a sham, and God is less willing for us to be saved then Jesus.
Just in case you're interested, following is a list of Scriptures which support the view that the future is not fixed:
Gen. 2:19 | Gen. 6:5–6 | Gen. 22:12 | Exod. 3:18–4:9 | Exod. 4:10–16 | Exod. 13:17 | Exod. 16:4 | Exod. 32:14 | Exod. 32:33 | Exod. 33:1–3, 14 | Num. 11:1–2 | Num. 14:11 | Num. 14:12–20 | Num. 16:20–35 | Num. 16:41–48 | Deut. 8:2 | Deut. 9:13–14, 18–20, 25 | Deut. 13:1–3 | Deut. 30:19 | Judg. 2:20–3:5 | Judg. 10:13–15 | 1 Sam. 2:27–31 | 1 Sam. 13:13–14 | 1 Sam. 15:10 | 1 Sam. 15:35 | 1 Sam. 23:9–13 | 2 Sam. 24:12–16 | 2 Sam. 24:17–25 | 1 Kings 21:27–29 | 2 Kings 13:3–5 | 2 Kings 20:1–7 | 1 Chron. 21:7–13 | 1 Chron. 21:15 | 2 Chron. 7:12–14 | 2 Chron. 12:5–8 | 2 Chron. 32:31 | Psalm 106:23 | Isa. 5:3–7 | Isa. 38:1–5 | Jer. 3:6–7 | Jer. 3:19–20 | Jer. 7:5–7 | Jer. 18:7–11 | Jer. 19:5 | Jer. 26:2–3 | Jer. 26:19 | Jer. 32:35 | Jer. 38:17–18, 20–21, 23 | Ezek. 12:1–3 | Ezek. 20:5–22 | Ezek. 22:29–31 | Ezek. 33:13–15 | Hosea 8:5 | Hosea 11:8–9 | Joel 2:13–14 | Amos 7:1–6 | Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10; 4:2 | Matt. 25:41 | Matt. 26:39 | Acts 15:7 | Acts 21:10–12 | 2 Pet. 3:9–12 | Rev. 3:5 | Rev. 22:18
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12097
01/09/05 03:05 AM
01/09/05 03:05 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Amen Tom,
God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence.
In the light of the topic question here which of the following two would be the proper understanding of the above statement?
" God did not intend that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence."
or
" God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He intended its existence."
Which is in keeping with the original thought?
How do we understand the foreseeing as expressed above?
That which is cut and dry needs the oil of the spirit.
Shalom
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12098
01/09/05 05:01 AM
01/09/05 05:01 AM
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So, Tom,
Are you trying to say that in spite of the conventional understanding of the Adventist church and all those quotes by Daryl and Mike that God is not just a pre-programmed computer after all?
RL
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12099
01/09/05 06:24 AM
01/09/05 06:24 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl just reposted Mike's quotes, and they are certainly legitimate quotes to consider.
A problem I have with the traditional view that the future is fixed or determined is I that the logical theological development from that is the Calvinistic perspective. Mike's logical derivations from this premise (that the future is fixed) are sound, I believe, just not in harmony with inspiration (although very similar to Calvinistic theology).
For example, Mike writes that God is the "author of death" and something similar relating to sin. I believe these deductions are valid, but they don't agree with the statements that God is not the author of sin, suffering and death; rather that is how Satan attempts to portray Him.
Similarly Mike's deductions that Christ's coming must be fixed, and thus we cannot hasten or delay His coming are also valid. These also do not agree with the statements from inspiration that we *can* hasten and delay His coming, and indeed have.
All the problems stem from a faulty premise. Inspiration does not present the view that the future is fixed; only the view that God knows the future. But God's knowledge of the future must be in harmony with what He has revealed.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12100
01/09/05 01:42 PM
01/09/05 01:42 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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What do you mean by valid?
How does valid relate to truth?
Shalom
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12101
01/09/05 02:28 PM
01/09/05 02:28 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, please do not hesitate to quote the truths I have shared regarding these things in their full context.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12102
01/09/05 09:51 PM
01/09/05 09:51 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, I was trying to be careful to correctly represent your views. My point was that if one holds that the future is fixed (like a T.V. rerun, as you put it), then if one reasons logically, that will lead to the positions you hold:
1) God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable.
2) God is the author of death.
3) "Was sinning inevitable? Of course it was."
I believe I stated these view accurately, as well as your views related to Christ's second coming. If you think I have misrepresent a view you hold, or have created a false impression by not providing context, please don't hesitate to clarify.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12103
01/10/05 01:21 AM
01/10/05 01:21 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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So Tom, what I understand you saying by 'valid' is that Mike's deductions and reasoning follow through on his fundamental concept, which is not necessarily to be truth.
I think you have outlined his basic concept well. Do you agree Mike.
Shalom
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