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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12124
01/22/05 12:09 PM
01/22/05 12:09 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
John B. wrote,
quote:
When God created man, Satan was not banished to this planet. He had full roam of heaven, only he had lost his position of covering cherub....

It was not until the cross that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and there was no more room found for him in heaven,...

John, that's not true. Satan was cast out of heaven before the creation of the earth. Early Writings pages 145-146 makes this plain:
"Until this time all heaven had been in order, harmony, and perfect subjection to the government of God. It was the highest sin to rebel against His order and will. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. Satan, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus, was insinuating against the government of God. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to His Son. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They wished to look into His unsearchable wisdom, and ascertain His purpose in exalting Jesus and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father to have each case decided. It was there determined that Satan should be expelled from heaven, with all the angels who had joined him in the rebellion. Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God and those who were submissive to His will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, was driven from heaven.
{EW 145.2}

"After Satan and those who fell with him were shut out of heaven, and he realized that he had forever lost all its purity and glory, he repented, and wished to be reinstated in heaven. He was willing to take his proper place, or any position that might be assigned him. But no; heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. All heaven might be marred should he be taken back; for sin originated with him, and the seeds of rebellion were within him. Both he and his followers wept, and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But their sin -- their hatred, their envy and jealousy -- had been so great that God could not blot it out. It must remain to receive its final punishment.
{EW 146.1}

"When Satan became fully conscious that there was no possibility of his being brought again into favor with God, his malice and hatred began to be manifest. He consulted with his angels, and a plan was laid to still work against God's government. When Adam and Eve were placed in the beautiful garden, Satan was laying plans to destroy them. In no way could this happy couple be deprived of their happiness if they obeyed God. Satan could not exercise his power upon them unless they should first disobey God and forfeit His favor. Some plan must therefore be devised to lead them to disobedience that they might incur God's frown and be brought under the more direct influence of Satan and his angels. It was decided that Satan should assume another form and manifest an interest for man. He must insinuate against God's truthfulness and create doubt whether God did mean just what He said; next, he must excite their curiosity, and lead them to pry into the unsearchable plans of God -- the very sin of which Satan had been guilty -- and reason as to the cause of His restrictions in regard to the tree of knowledge."
{EW 146.2}
Also Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pages 22-24:
"Then there was war in Heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of Heaven, and His loyal angels, engaged in conflict with the arch rebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from Heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in Heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before.
{1SP 22.3}

"Angels in Heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in Heaven. The Father consulted Jesus in regard to at once carrying out their purpose to make man to inhabit the earth. He would place man upon probation to test his loyalty, before he could be rendered eternally secure. If he endured the test wherewith God saw fit to prove him, he should eventually be equal with the angels. He was to have the favor of God, and he was to converse with angels, and they with him. He did not see fit to place them beyond the power of disobedience.
{1SP 23.1}

"The Father and the Son engaged in the mighty, wondrous work they had contemplated, of creating the world. The earth came forth from the hand of the Creator exceedingly beautiful. There were mountains, and hills, and plains; and interspersed among them were rivers and bodies of water."
{1SP 24.1}

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12125
01/22/05 03:17 PM
01/22/05 03:17 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
John,

That Satan was expelled from heaven, needs to be understood in the context of his request for reinstatement. He was expelled from his position of authority and covering cherub. He could not be taken back in favour with God. Why? Because he only wanted his position and God's favour back, not because he favoured God. That he had roam of heaven outside of that capacity is evident in the book of Job, even to the point of presenting himself before God. Christ delineated the time when Satan was cast out and had no more access to heaven.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Please note that the war in revelation was fought after the child was born. That the accuser was cast down which accused them before God day and night. They overcame him by the blood of the lamb.

All these place the time at the cross. It also testifies that he was able to accuse before God on an ongoing basis, which also means that the whole heavens were involved. This also includes the angels that fell.

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12126
01/22/05 05:25 PM
01/22/05 05:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John B., you're right in that Satan was restricted to tempting Adam and Eve at the forbidden tree. After awhile, if they avoided the tree as instructed, Satan would have been punished and destroyed, and the human race would have lived happily ever after.

quote:
Mike's question. "Was sin or sinning possible before the Godhead created free moral agents?"

I would like to ask a counter-question

Did God create free moral agents with the possibility and ability to live without sin or sinning? Was it possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning?

The answer to your question is an obvious - YES!!! Not only then, but much more so now. It's your turn to answer my question.

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12127
01/22/05 08:07 PM
01/22/05 08:07 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Thank you Mike, I am glad that you agree that there was the ability and possibility to live without sin. If you don't mind going along with me for awhile, I would like to clarify this side of the question first.
Since God did create free moral agents (FMA) with the ability and possibility of living without sin. Was this possibility and ability only in the minds of the FMA or was it also in the mind of God? In other words, was it only in the minds of the FMA that this possibility existed or did God himself in his own mind think that it was possible for the FMA to live without sin?

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12128
01/22/05 08:32 PM
01/22/05 08:32 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
John, again: Satan was expelled from heaven before the earth was created. Not at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. Inspiration is crystal clear on that point.

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12129
01/22/05 08:58 PM
01/22/05 08:58 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
John, if that is how you choose to understand it, how do you place the words of the Saviour?

Since at creation Satan's and his angels' access to this planet was limited to and only allowed at the tree of knowledge of good and evil, were they all there since they had nowhere else?
How did Satan present himself before God re Job?
How did Satan stand before God accusing the brethren day and night on an ongoing basis?
What did Christ mean by "NOW"? What was Satan cast out of in John 12:31.
What was Jesus beholding falling from Heaven and when in Luke 10:18?
Do you not believe that the death of Christ overthrew Satan?
Where and what did it overthrow him from?

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12130
01/22/05 09:13 PM
01/22/05 09:13 PM
Cheri Fritz  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 278
Gloversville, NY, USA
I hope you all enjoy this as much as I did when I received it.
-Cheri-

A University professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"
A certain student bravely replied, "Yes, He did!"
"God created everything?" the professor asked again, "Yes, sir!" the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists. And, according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil." The student became quiet before such an answer.
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God is a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Professor, May I ask you a question?" "Of course," replied the professor. The studend stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists, Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact, sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat.
Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy. Absolute zero ( -460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes inert. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does!"
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir, Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. We can study light, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wave lengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is?
You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally, the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said, we see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold - a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down. The young student's name?
- Albert Einstein

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12131
01/23/05 07:45 AM
01/23/05 07:45 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Was this possibility and ability only in the minds of the FMA or was it also in the mind of God? In other words, was it only in the minds of the FMA that this possibility existed or did God himself in his own mind think that it was possible for the FMA to live without sin?
This is a great question!

Regarding the definition of sin, the definition in the KJV is fine, that "sin is transgression of the law." It is not a mistranslation. There are several other translations (I think I have counted at least 8) that have the same translation (or something very similar, like "violation" instead of "transgression"). The Spirit of Prophesy uses this definition many times (19 times, if memory serves, she states that "sin is the transgression of the law" is the only Bible definition for sin)

Now the translation that "sin is lawlessness" is fine too. The Greek word is "anomonia" or something like that, with that "a" part meaning "against" and the rest meaning law. It's similar to the English word "antinomian". Sin is against the law, or that which the law condemns. Since love is the fulfilling of the law, we could say that anything that sin is anything that is anti-love, or against the principles of love. I think the definition that sin is rebellion is also a very good one.

It's a mistake to think that "transgression of the law" refers only to actions, as in breaking a rule. God looks at the inward man. Jesus showed that the law could be broken by a glance, a thought, by impure motives. So "transgression of the law" has a very broad meaning.

Regarding a sin unto death and sin not unto death, I think that's not a difficult thing to understand. Sins unto death are sins which involve light. When we knowingly act against that which we know is truth, that has a profound impact on our souls. When we ignorantly do that which is wrong, the impact is far, far less.

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12132
01/23/05 07:09 PM
01/23/05 07:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John B., okay, I'll go along with your line of questioning and reasoning. I believe sinless living was, and still is, a reality in both God's mind and man's mind. Not only in theory, but in reality too. What do yo think?

On a different note, while it is true the fallen angels were restricted to tempting our first parents at the forbidden tree, it is also true they were free to wander throughout the planet and heaven (not sure about other planets). So, they weren't crowded under the tree. Since the cross though they no longer have access to heaven.

Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? #12133
01/24/05 01:25 PM
01/24/05 01:25 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Thank you Mike, I agree with all your comments in the last post.

Since to live without sin was and is a definite possibility and reality both in the mind of God and the FMA, were the conditions at creation in favour (predisposed) of a sinless life or in favour of sin, or neutral?
What was the governing/deciding factor of sinlessness or sin, in the mind of the FMA, in the mind of God?

On the side of your question:
Does God know what sin is?
Does God have a free will, that is, Is God a free moral agent?

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