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Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Elle] #121451
11/11/09 01:34 AM
11/11/09 01:34 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: asygo

When we have no mediator, then the purification by Christ's blood/righteousness will stop.


Do you believe you can become so perfect that you no longer need the righteousness of Christ to enable you to stand before a Holy God?
Will you be presenting your own righteousness to God as perfect enough to enter into God's presence during those last days?


Or is it that at that point, Christ has put His seal of ownership upon His people because He knows they would rather die than knowingly commit sin and dishonour His name. But it's still His righteous merits that is their perfection.

Last edited by dedication; 11/11/09 01:40 AM.
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: dedication] #121452
11/11/09 01:57 AM
11/11/09 01:57 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Do you believe you can become so perfect that you no longer need the righteousness of Christ to enable you to stand before a Holy God?

No, not before corruption has been turned into incorruption. I believe that from the cross to the crown, we will be wrestling with inbred sin. I believe that as we get closer to Christ, we will appear more faulty in our own eyes, not because we will be seeing things that are not there, but our spiritual sight will be restored so that we will see things that have always been there but hadn't noticed previously.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121454
11/11/09 02:55 AM
11/11/09 02:55 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - Arnold, I can't help but believing I have misunderstood you. Are you saying "whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" must be taken to mean they continue to sin therefore they continue to repent?

That verse means that there is a class of sin that those born of God do not and cannot commit. However, 1Jn 1:8 means that there is a class of sin that we cannot deny that we have. Later in the book, John mentions a class of sin that does not lead to death.

Look in the sanctuary system, as GC has started already, and you'll see different ways of addressing the different classes of sin. Almost every sacrifice is for a sin done ignorantly, but the sinner offers the sacrifice when he finds out about the sin. Christ's death was required even for sins done ignorantly.

However, there was a sacrifice that was not attached to a specific sin. As we know, confession and repentance should be specific. But the morning and evening sacrifices were not for any specific sin. Yet, the sacrifice still typified Christ's death for sin.

Sins done in ignorance, once discovered, required specific sacrifices, confession and repentance. What sins were the morning and evening sacrifices for? What sins were confessed upon the animal? I believe these sacrifices were for ignorant sins that were not yet discovered.

When did the morning and evening sacrifices stop?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: asygo] #121459
11/11/09 03:13 PM
11/11/09 03:13 PM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Christ's death was required even for sins done ignorantly.


When Lucifer sinned, God offered to pardon him without Christ's death.

The following also comes to mind:

Quote:
Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.("Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b, page 3)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Tom] #121460
11/11/09 03:17 PM
11/11/09 03:17 PM
Tom  Offline
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Here's the "without a Mediator" statement:

Quote:
Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.(GC 425)


This is before corruption puts on incorruption.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Rosangela] #121462
11/11/09 04:26 PM
11/11/09 04:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Is "stained with sin" the same thing as sinning? That is, are they guilty of sinning? For example, are they guilty of sinning each time they confess a sin?

R: Their obedience (as everything else which comes from sinners) is imperfect, tainted with sin, and cannot be accepted by God without the merits of Christ's blood.

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit." {FW 50.1}

It isn't clear to me what you believe. Do you think Ellen meant for us to understand her to say when we cooperate with God, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature and, as a result, experience "righteousness and true holiness" that it is akin to sinning and requires the atoning blood of Jesus?

Also, do you think the expression "their earthliness must be consumed" (GC 621) implies they are sinning? If not, what do you think it means?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: asygo] #121463
11/11/09 04:58 PM
11/11/09 04:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Arnold, I can't help but believing I have misunderstood you. Are you saying "whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" must be taken to mean they continue to sin therefore they continue to repent?

A: That verse means that there is a class of sin that those born of God do not and cannot commit. However, 1Jn 1:8 means that there is a class of sin that we cannot deny that we have. Later in the book, John mentions a class of sin that does not lead to death.

Look in the sanctuary system, as GC has started already, and you'll see different ways of addressing the different classes of sin. Almost every sacrifice is for a sin done ignorantly, but the sinner offers the sacrifice when he finds out about the sin. Christ's death was required even for sins done ignorantly.

However, there was a sacrifice that was not attached to a specific sin. As we know, confession and repentance should be specific. But the morning and evening sacrifices were not for any specific sin. Yet, the sacrifice still typified Christ's death for sin.

Sins done in ignorance, once discovered, required specific sacrifices, confession and repentance. What sins were the morning and evening sacrifices for? What sins were confessed upon the animal? I believe these sacrifices were for ignorant sins that were not yet discovered.

When did the morning and evening sacrifices stop?

First of all, I do not think discussing the timing of putting on incorruption as it relates to "righteousness and true holiness" is off topic. Thank you for bringing it up. I agree with Tom, though, that "righteousness and true holiness" cease requiring the atoning blood of Jesus before they put on incorruption.

Secondly, why do you think 1 John 3:1-10 is referring to a certain class of sin and not simply sin? I agree with you that the morning and evening sacrifices accommodated sins of ignorance. I also believe it continues until probation closes. At that point no one alive can commit a sin for which they are ignorant. However, I do not believe "inbred sin" counts as sins of ignorance. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
We may have the peace which passeth understanding; but it will cost us battles with the powers of darkness, struggles severe against selfishness and inbred sin. The victories gained daily through persevering, untiring effort in well-doing will be precious through Christ who has loved us, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a "peculiar people, zealous of good works." . . . {LHU 98.5}

"Inbred sin" or "hereditary tendencies to wrong" do not constitute sinning ignorantly. Born-again believers are very much aware of them and are exhorted to rein them in, to subject them to a sanctified will and mind, to prevent them from resurfacing and regaining control of them. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17. Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness. The profane have become reverent, the drunken sober, the profligate pure. Souls that have borne the likeness of Satan have become transformed into the image of God. This change is in itself the miracle of miracles. A change wrought by the Word, it is one of the deepest mysteries of the Word. We cannot understand it; we can only believe, as declared by the Scriptures, it is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." {AA 476.1}

When the Spirit of God controls mind and heart, the converted soul breaks forth into a new song; for he realizes that in his experience the promise of God has been fulfilled, that his transgression has been forgiven, his sin covered. He has exercised repentance toward God for the violation of the divine law, and faith toward Christ, who died for man's justification. "Being justified by faith," he has "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1. {AA 476.2}

But because this experience is his, the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

I'll avoid the temptation to say Jesus demonstrated how to subject hereditary tendencies to wrong to a sanctified will and mind.

Thirdly, why do you think 1 John 1:8 is referring to present sins of ignorance rather than past sins confessed and pardoned? That is, why do you think "have no sin" (v. 8) is totally different than "have not sinned" (v. 10)? Why do you think John isn't referring to past sins in both verses? And, isn't the sin John says doesn't lead to death referring to sins of ignorance?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: asygo] #121464
11/11/09 05:10 PM
11/11/09 05:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Dedication, please respond to the two posts I addressed to you on page 5 of this thread (121408 and 121409). Thank you.

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: asygo] #121467
11/11/09 06:27 PM
11/11/09 06:27 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: asygo
That verse means that there is a class of sin that those born of God do not and cannot commit. However, 1Jn 1:8 means that there is a class of sin that we cannot deny that we have. Later in the book, John mentions a class of sin that does not lead to death.

Look in the sanctuary system, as GC has started already, and you'll see different ways of addressing the different classes of sin. Almost every sacrifice is for a sin done ignorantly, but the sinner offers the sacrifice when he finds out about the sin. Christ's death was required even for sins done ignorantly.

However, there was a sacrifice that was not attached to a specific sin. As we know, confession and repentance should be specific. But the morning and evening sacrifices were not for any specific sin. Yet, the sacrifice still typified Christ's death for sin.

Sins done in ignorance, once discovered, required specific sacrifices, confession and repentance. What sins were the morning and evening sacrifices for? What sins were confessed upon the animal? I believe these sacrifices were for ignorant sins that were not yet discovered.

When did the morning and evening sacrifices stop?

Arnold,

As you mentioned me and alluded to my views, let me clarify those. I believe every sin we do is counted by God as a sin of ignorance. There are degrees of ignorance. There are willful sins and intentional ones. There are sins which are greater than others. But they are all done in ignorance--for we do not truly understand what we are doing. Notice Jesus' prayer on the cross--and it is my firm belief this prayer applies to me, and not just to the Roman soldiers and Jewish leaders--"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

The entire sacrificial system was built upon this concept. Sins of ignorance could be atoned for. Sins of knowledge cannot be (look at Lucifer's case--already discussed in another thread). When Jesus requested of His Father to forgive our sins of ignorance, He was fulfilling in every detail the type represented in the sacrifices. As the Anti-type, He requested forgiveness for us because we had sinned in ignorance.

Our comprehension of our sin is no greater than our comprehension of God. We see through a glass, darkly, in both cases. In fact, to know God is to comprehend our sin and sinfulness. We cannot see a revelation of God apart from a simultaneous revelation of our own filthiness.

Therefore, to sin ignorantly is synonymous with being ignorant of God. Until we know the Truth, we can never hope to be free.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Green Cochoa] #121478
11/11/09 07:31 PM
11/11/09 07:31 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM:
First of all, I do not think discussing the timing of putting on incorruption as it relates to "righteousness and true holiness" is off topic. Thank you for bringing it up. I agree with Tom, though, that "righteousness and true holiness" cease requiring the atoning blood of Jesus before they put on incorruption.


To clarify something here, I didn't say the righteous cease requiring the atoning blood of Jesus. I spoke only of Christ's work of intercession. The atoning blood of Jesus covers more than simply Christ's work of intercession.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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