Certainly, God's perspective takes it into account. But God's perspective is not limited to it.

For example, let's consider Christ's perspective as He hung on the cross. I don't think He way saying, "My problem is that I am damaged to the point of being incompatible with God." Every sinner must confess that, but not Jesus.


I still believe that Maxwell said that God *could* have set up the universe such that sinners live while being quarantined from everyone else, but He chose not to.


I agree with that also.

Even when dealing with His enemies, God always does what is best. And in the case of the wicked, death is best. But given that they are wicked enemies of God, they will not submit willingly to God's will and wisdom.

BTW, I work in hospice, so it is very easy for me to understand how death can be the best option under certain circumstances. And it is usually the case that the decision to initiate actions that will inevitably result in the patient's death is made by one who loves the patient dearly.

I didn't follow your train of thought here. Maxwell argues that the problem of sin was not a legal one, but an actual one. ("actual" is my choice of words; I'm not sure what Maxwell's choice is, but the idea is that it's a cause and effect thing). I agree with his perspective regarding this question. I think his views on the atonement and the judgment follow from this premise.



Sure God could do this, but it doesn't follow from this idea that God set things up so that sin and death come as a package. Sin naturally results in death. God allows this to happen. God didn't do something special to cause this to be the case. There wasn't any special set up involved, but sin, because of what it is in essence, leads to death. This is my understanding of Maxwell's thoughts on this question.



Glad to hear this. Certainly anyone would be afraid of God if one believed God would set one of fire for hours or days at time, which is a reason I don't perceive this idea to be possible. I very much like the idea that even God's enemies have nothing to fear from Him, an idea I never thought of until hearing it from Maxwell.



Agreed.



GC 543 says that their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.



In the case of the lost, it is they who have initiated these decisions, as DA 764 makes clear.

So also in hospice, the patient often initiates his dying condition through unhealthy habits, etc. Sometimes, the patient is the one who signs himself up for hospice. That's what you are talking about, and you keep referring to DA 764.

But that is not what I'm talking about. There often comes a point in the patient's life, as he nears death, that he becomes incapable of making decisions for himself. Yes, he might have made the decision to live an unhealthy lifestyle. Yes, he might have made the decision to sign up for hospice. He might even have made a decision about what should be done when he becomes incapable of making decisions (Advance Directives) and who should implement those decisions (Power Of Attorney).

In cases where we "pull the plug" (whether literally or figuratively), the POA is the one who initiates the actions that directly lead to the patient's death. While the patient made the decisions that end in death, the POA participates. That's what I'm talking about.

Satan's death cannot be immediately attributable to suicide. Yes, his irrevocable decision to war against the Source of Life made death inevitable, and therefore, it could be said that he killed himself. However, while suffering for many days in the Judgment, he obviously is not killing himself. Otherwise, he would be pretty dumb for not killing himself sooner.

This is one point of difference that has contributed to the length of this and other threads. While nobody disputes the former reason for death (the sinner causes death to himself), there are some here, like you, who do not acknowledge the latter (someone else participates in implementing death). Just look at the quote above, where I was talking about the latter and you switched to the former. If you ever find yourself in a situation where, in order to minimize suffering, you must perform certain actions so that the decisions made by a loved one can be carried out to their ultimate conclusion, though the choices may be painful to you, you will know what I'm talking about. God knows what I'm talking about. In the Judgment, He will be making many such choices.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. How would Satan kill himself sooner? Why would he want to do so?

I had trouble following your post. You talked about me switching meanings, but I was just, from my point of view, trying to explain how I understand things. I see that there is a direct connection between sin and the suffering and death that comes after the lost are resurrected. It seems to me that this is what DA 764 is saying. DA 764 is arguing against the idea that God imposes death upon Satan or his followers, but that this death follows are the inevitable result of their choice. God could not permit this result to occur immediately because had He done so, it would have appeared to have been something He was imposing upon them. So God had to permit Christ to suffer this death, so that it could be seen what it's really like. Christ's suffering on the cross were not imposed upon Him by God, but were the results of His becoming sin for us. In so doing, He demonstrated the death which is the inevitable result of sin, so that when God permits this to happen after the second resurrection, there will be no understanding that God is no imposing something upon the lost.

GC 541-543 also discusses this. It points out that if God allowed the lost to continue to live in heaven, it would be torture for them. This is a reason I find the idea that God will set people on fire to make them suffer nonsensical. If it were God's intention to torture people, He could simply make them live in heaven for however long He desired they suffer. There's no reason to set them on fire.

Anyway, this section of GC points out that the lost have nothing in them that responds to selflessness, and they have no desire to live in a setting where such is the way of life. God does nothing to them against their will. This is why A. G. Maxwell could correctly assert that even God's enemies have nothing to fear from God.

One reason why this topic has gone on for so long is that you and I don't understand each other. Let me try to clarify. When Satan eventually dies, is it because he killed himself? Or will he be killed by someone/something else?

This is similar to the "_______ itself causes death" issue. I had no idea it would take so much effort to get an answer. I'll have to find that somewhere around here.

You were talking about switching things. I wrote "sin 'itself' does not cause death." The "itself" was in quotes, for a specific purpose, which was carefully explained. You appeared to me be be taking this as saying something I wasn't intending to say to make a point I wasn't making. That's why I didn't want to respond to the "_____ itself causes death" question, because that's not what I was saying.

Regarding topics going on for awhile, they go on when people have things they feel like talking about. I usually respond if someone says something. MM does the same, so threads in which we are both involved tend to go on a long time, regardless of whether there's misunderstanding involved or not.

When Satan eventually dies, it will be because God permits him to reap the full result of his sin. This is what DA 764 says. The inevitable result of sin is death. So Satan killed himself by choosing sin. Sin is based on the principle of selfishness, which is not able to do anything other than cause misery, suffering and death. He is not killed by someone/something else, which looks to me to be the point of DA 764, which I explained in the previous post.

Regarding an analogy to things like this, it's difficult to come up with one which stands on all fours, so to speak, but here's one I've used which I think at least communicates the general idea. Say that sin is represented by poisonous gas, and God supernaturally, unknown to each one, provides a filter which makes it so the poisonous gas does not immediately cause death, as, if God did not do this, it would appear that God was killing those who had in reality poisoned the air they breathe. In the judgment, God removes the filter. What causes their death? Is it God's removing the filter? One could certainly look at it this way, but this hides the true dynamic of what's going on. The real problem is the poison.

Similarly, often inspiration speaks of God's causing the destruction of the wicked. The SOP speaks of it in terms of the wicked's not being able to bear the glory of God, which is His character. One could look at this as God's causing their death. But God's glory, His character, is simply agape, love. There's no reason why love should kill anyone, any more than that breathing should. It's only because of what those who have rebelled against God have themselves done that the glory of Him who is love (or breathing, in the analogy) results in their death.

OK, so Satan kills himself during the Judgment.


I don't know, in your paradigm, how Satan could kill himself sooner, since I don't know exactly how Satan kills himself in the end. But whatever it is that he does that serves as the IMMEDIATE cause of his death, he would want to do it sooner rather than later.

Why would he want to do that? Because if he's going to kill himself anyway, he would want to do it before suffering unimaginable mental anguish. Why suffer first and then die, when you can die first and skip the suffering?

Or is he not allowed to do that? Is he going to be forced to review his sins and go through the inevitable mental anguish?

I agree with your desire to expose the truth that sin kills. That should not be hidden.

However, I disagree with your attempt to hide the fact that God is most definitely involved in orchestrating the Judgment. I prefer to expose everything. Coincidentally, isn't that what will happen in the Judgment?

No. Did you read what I wrote about the air being poisoned as an analogy?



As I've explained, DA 764 speaks of how had God allowed Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished, as death "is the inevitable result of sin." I don't know how your question fits into this paradigm. It doesn't seem to me that it does.



It seems that Satan wants to live as long as possible.



Many prefer to live, even if it involves suffering, than to die. Satan certainly seems like he would follow in this category. Actually, it's inevitable that one suffers if one sins, so Satan has experience suffering since he first sinned.



I'm sure if Satan told God He didn't want to live anymore, God wouldn't force him to live.



As force isn't a part of God's government, no, I don't believe God forces Satan.