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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#122351
12/22/09 02:26 PM
12/22/09 02:26 PM
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SDA
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Midland
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Or, is it necessary for God to punish and destroy them according to their sinfulness?
I suppose this has been gone over before, but I was recently reading this and so it is fresh in my mind. In GC, page 614-, talking about the time of trouble, it says the restraint upon the wicked is removed, the Spirit of God is withdrawn, they have no protection from the wicked one, Satan plunges them into one great, final trouble, angels cease to hold the winds of human passion. Comparing to the Jewish nation, God's presence was finally withdrawn as it will be after the sanctuary is decided. I guess that isn't the ultimate death, but at the time of trouble, it seems to me that God is withdrawing from them and Satan is destroying them. When they are harassing God's people, that seems a most opportune time for God to flex His muscle. Since He doesn't, would after they all bow to Him, would this be a time for Him to slaughter them?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#122358
12/22/09 06:10 PM
12/22/09 06:10 PM
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Yes, it's necessary for all sentient beings to acknowledge the justice of God. Every knee will bow. No, it's not necessary for God to punish or destroy them, at least not as a separate, arbitrary process. This happens naturally as a result of their actions in the judgment. What good does it do for the wicked to acknowledge the justice of God through "unwilling lips"? Who benefits? Can the righteous live happily ever after without it? Also, what natural elements are at work in the death of the wicked?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: kland]
#122359
12/22/09 06:19 PM
12/22/09 06:19 PM
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SDA
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Or, is it necessary for God to punish and destroy them according to their sinfulness?
I suppose this has been gone over before, but I was recently reading this and so it is fresh in my mind. In GC, page 614-, talking about the time of trouble, it says the restraint upon the wicked is removed, the Spirit of God is withdrawn, they have no protection from the wicked one, Satan plunges them into one great, final trouble, angels cease to hold the winds of human passion. Comparing to the Jewish nation, God's presence was finally withdrawn as it will be after the sanctuary is decided. I guess that isn't the ultimate death, but at the time of trouble, it seems to me that God is withdrawing from them and Satan is destroying them. When they are harassing God's people, that seems a most opportune time for God to flex His muscle. Since He doesn't, would after they all bow to Him, would this be a time for Him to slaughter them? Commanding holy angels to withdraw their protection and permitting evil angels to manipulate the passions of mankind to serve Satan's purposes is not the same thing as commanding holy angels to pour out the seven last plagues.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#122362
12/22/09 09:03 PM
12/22/09 09:03 PM
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So,
Why doesn't God flex His muscle instead of just withdrawing protection since they are really being bad rather than just bowing?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: kland]
#122364
12/22/09 09:52 PM
12/22/09 09:52 PM
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California, USA
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Why doesn't God flex His muscle instead of just withdrawing protection since they are really being bad rather than just bowing? This might seem off-topic, but it's not. How many children have you raised or are raising? If the answer is greater than zero, have you ever disciplined them, or do you just let them do as they please and reap whatever consequences naturally come with what they sow?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: kland]
#122365
12/22/09 10:06 PM
12/22/09 10:06 PM
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When they are harassing God's people, that seems a most opportune time for God to flex His muscle. God's ways are not our ways. What seems opportune to you may look like bad timing to Him. Perhaps you think that stopping the harassment then would be the best thing to do, while God thinks that stopping the harassment then would inevitably lead to something worse. True faith doesn't mean that God will do as we think or want Him to do. It means we accept what God does, even if it goes against our will or wisdom. would this be a time for Him to slaughter them? "Slaughter" is such a harsh word. We like to think of it as God "ceasing to give them life" instead. Yes, the end result is the same, but we like to be semantically sensitive.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#122366
12/23/09 02:19 AM
12/23/09 02:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Only time for a quickie...Yes, it's necessary for all sentient beings to acknowledge the justice of God. Every knee will bow. If so, then there is no reason for a sinner to live after his knee has bowed. Therefore, the moment their knee bows is the moment they die. Agreed? From another angle, how about those who will be "as if they had never been"? How come their knees don't bow? I gave several reasons as to why the lost are resurrected. What you are saying might follow if I said the above (see GC 670) were the *only* reason.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#122367
12/23/09 02:21 AM
12/23/09 02:21 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Yes, it's necessary for all sentient beings to acknowledge the justice of God. Every knee will bow. No, it's not necessary for God to punish or destroy them, at least not as a separate, arbitrary process. This happens naturally as a result of their actions in the judgment.
MM:What good does it do for the wicked to acknowledge the justice of God through "unwilling lips"? I made clear they were willing. Who benefits? Can the righteous live happily ever after without it? What's "it"? Why are you asking this? Also, what natural elements are at work in the death of the wicked? What do you mean? Why are you asking this?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#122368
12/23/09 02:24 AM
12/23/09 02:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Why doesn't God flex His muscle instead of just withdrawing protection since they are really being bad rather than just bowing? This might seem off-topic, but it's not. How many children have you raised or are raising? If the answer is greater than zero, have you ever disciplined them, or do you just let them do as they please and reap whatever consequences naturally come with what they sow? In the judgment, as you appear to see things, the lost are set on fire. Surely one wouldn't set one's child on fire to discipline them.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#122369
12/23/09 02:26 AM
12/23/09 02:26 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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kland:Would this be a time for Him to slaughter them?
Arnold:"Slaughter" is such a harsh word. We like to think of it as God "ceasing to give them life" instead. Yes, the end result is the same, but we like to be semantically sensitive. Like speaking of a "final decision"? We're talking about setting people on fire, and controlling the burning process to maximize the pain involved. I don't think being "semantically sensitive" is the answer here.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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