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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#122514
12/31/09 04:08 AM
12/31/09 04:08 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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And what of sin if people like Moses die before they can repent? Does God take it for granted that they would have repented?
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#122532
01/01/10 06:04 AM
01/01/10 06:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
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I suspect that true repentance is a condition of the heart, invisible to man. Only God can discern the true condition of the heart. Even if someone openly repents for sin it may not be truely sincere. I also suspect that the physical act of confessing sin and asking for forgiveness is a fruit that results from repentance within the heart. Without any resultant fruit, the spirit of a repentant man is dead.
Last edited by JCS; 01/01/10 06:06 AM.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: JCS]
#122536
01/01/10 03:21 PM
01/01/10 03:21 PM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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Is actual repentance necessary? That is, is it necessary to go through the motion of repenting? Or, does the condition of the heart count as repentance? And, if someone like Moses dies in the throes of sinning, before being able to repent, is God legally obligated to impute repentance to pardon and save them?
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#122537
01/01/10 06:07 PM
01/01/10 06:07 PM
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Active Member 2012
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
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An excellent question. I honestly do not know.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: JCS]
#122538
01/02/10 01:33 AM
01/02/10 01:33 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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And what of sin if people like Moses die before they can repent? Does God take it for granted that they would have repented? It doesn't matter. God considers the person as they are (at the moment of death), and decides if the person would be happy in heaven or not. If so, the person is resurrected in the first resurrection. If not, in the second. Is actual repentance necessary? That is, is it necessary to go through the motion of repenting? Or, does the condition of the heart count as repentance? And, if someone like Moses dies in the throes of sinning, before being able to repent, is God legally obligated to impute repentance to pardon and save them? No, God isn't legally obligated to impute repentance to pardon and save them. There's nothing in the law which says this is necessary. Besides, the issue isn't a legal one, but a real one. That is, the legal system is a recognition of reality; it doesn't create any new reality. The law is a transcript of God's character. Even without the law, if a person were out of harmony with God's character, he would be unhappy in heaven. The law was given to convict people of sin, so they would see their need of Christ, so they could be reconciled to God. It doesn't constrain God in any way.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#122549
01/02/10 05:06 PM
01/02/10 05:06 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
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Tom, you seem to be saying repentance is optional not prerequisite.
PS - I'm referring specifically to the scenario articulated above.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#122550
01/02/10 05:08 PM
01/02/10 05:08 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
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Posts: 22,256
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JCS, yeah, I know what you mean. It makes sense to me to believe God imputes repentance in cases like the one described above. If Jesus can die on their behalf, if His righteousness can count for their righteousness, I don't see why He can't repent on their behalf.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#122557
01/03/10 12:20 AM
01/03/10 12:20 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M:Tom, you seem to be saying repentance is optional not prerequisite.
PS - I'm referring specifically to the scenario articulated above. In the scenario you outlined, as soon as Moses was resurrected, he would have repented. The character doesn't change when one is resurrected. Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
Page 543
were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542-543) The question to ask is a simple one. Would Moses, if transported to heaven, with his character such as it was when he died, be happy? Or would heaven be torture for him? If the former, he would be resurrected in the first resurrection. Clearly Moses would be happy in heaven. Therefore the timing of his death is irrelevant.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#122564
01/03/10 03:28 PM
01/03/10 03:28 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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People like Moses will repent soon after being resurrected. Interesting! My initial response is - I like it. But what about the pre-advent, investigative judgment? Is it assumed such people will repent? And is pardon written next to that sin? Or, does Jesus simply impute repentance knowing they will repent when they're resurrected?
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#122566
01/03/10 03:56 PM
01/03/10 03:56 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I suggested Moses would have repented had he died when sinning because:
1.The character won't change when one is resurrected.
2.The thoughts will continue as they were when one died, so it seems very likely, besides thoughts of "where am I?" that Moses would be thinking about what he was doing when he died.
Regarding what needs to be done, it's simple! God looks at the person's heart (or character). That's all that's needed. Ask the question, "Would Moses (or whoever) be happy in heaven." If yes, include him in the first resurrection (or zap him up right away in the case of Moses); if not, in the second.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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