There are different types of fire. Here are a few:

Con 81 and PP 359
Aaron's sons took the common fire, which God did not accept, and they offered insult to the infinite God by presenting this strange fire before Him. God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. {Con 81.1} For this sin a fire went out from the Lord and devoured them in the sight of the people. {PP 359.2} NOTE: they were in the very presence of God, and yet He used fire to consume them, instead of His "glory".

SR 59
[Enoch] saw the righteous crowned with glory and honor while the wicked were separated from the presence of the Lord and consumed with fire. {SR 58.3} NOTE: they are first separated from the presence of God, and then they are consumed with fire.

CD 60
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was on account of their great wickedness…. their cup of iniquity was full, and they were consumed with fire from heaven. {CD 60.2}

TMK 271
As in ancient times, when prayer was offered, fire descended from heaven and consumed the sacrifice upon the altar, so in answer to our prayers, the heavenly fire will come into our souls. {TMK 271.4}

GC 621
[During Jacob’s time of trouble] Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire… it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

4aSG 92, 93
[Because David numbered the people] God accepted the offering by answering David in sending fire from Heaven to consume the sacrifice. The angel of God was commanded to put his sword into his sheath, and cease his work of destruction. {4aSG 92.3}

2T 269
He did not leave you in the furnace for the fire of affliction to consume... The furnace was to purify and refine, but not to consume and destroy. {2T 269.1}

How we interpret the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophesy will be to a large extend dependent on how we view God's character and the nature of sin. Is sin something which God finds unpleasant, and therefore punishes because He doesn't like it? Or is sin deadly in and of itself? Does sin bring about its own punishment, or is the punishment of sin due to an arbitrary act of God?

How does God eliminate sin? Is it by force? Or is it through love and truth?

What is God like? Does He use force to get His way? Will He win the Great Controversy because He is stronger than anyone else?

How does God save us? Is it by appeasing His wrath by arbitrarily punishing Christ so He doesn't have to arbitrarily punish us?

I am using the word "arbitrary" in a careful way. "Arbitrary" means according to individual discretion as opposed to law. The Bible speaks of the law of sin and death. If the law of sin and death is that sin causes death, then we can understand both the atonement and the destruction of the wicked in a non-arbitrary way. If there is no causative link, then both the atonement and the destruction of the wicked are events determined sole at the individual discretion of God, and are hence arbitrary by definition.

The wrath of God is love. No question about it. I do not doubt God's love. Yes, He will be forced to punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire. But this strange act does not mean He is arbitrary. The idea that God does not punish sinners before He destroys them with literal fire and brimstone is false.

The idea that sin itself destroys sinners is false. Sin is not a combustible agent. Rather, sin is the transgression of the law. And, had God not barred access to the tree of life sinners would live forever. "Lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." Gen 3:22.

Mike: The wrath of God is love. No question about it. I do not doubt God's love.

Tom: We agree here. God's love is His wrath.

Mike: Yes, He will be forced to punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire.

Tom: What forces God? What can force God?

Mike: But this strange act does not mean He is arbitrary.

Tom: As I explained, it is arbitrary if it does not follow from some law but is only applied as an act of individual discretion.

Mike: The idea that God does not punish sinners before He destroys them with literal fire and brimstone is false.

Tom: He punishes them and then destroys them with literal fire and brimstone? What are you referring to here? Where does the glory of God which destroys them fit in? Is that part of the pre-destruction punishment which doesn't destroy them, or does He destroy them by His glory after He destroys them with fire and brimstone? How does He punish them?

Mike: The idea that sin itself destroys sinners is false. Sin is not a combustible agent. Rather, sin is the transgression of the law.

Tom: You seem to be inconsistent with your treatment of sin. I'm the one who's been saying it is transgression of the law, and as such is makes no sense to say it is "quarantined" in blood.

Mike: And, had God not barred access to the tree of life sinners would live forever. "Lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." Gen 3:22.

Tom: You bring this up a lot, although I'm not sure why. Do you think if Adam and Eve had eaten even once of the tree of life, they would have lived forever? Do you think they didn't eat of it before they ate of the forbidden tree?

I must confess I haven't read all the posts so I may be missing some info. I do have two questions. Was the flood literal and did they drown in real water? Were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by real fire?

1 Peter 3:10
"In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it." {3SG 82.3}

Hi Dan, and welcome to the discussion. I hope that you will read more of the posts. I especially recommend the page from the Morning Watch Book "Mysteries Unveiled" by Lynn Wood, copyright 1944. I find this to be a very important topic from which I get my understanding of the purpose and perpetatuty of God's law, the Investigative Judgment, and how God works with us.

As to your question, Yes they were literal, and both, as well as the destruction of Pharaoh' Army in the Red Sea, and the destruction by the Assyrians and Babylonians, and the fall of these powers and re-establishment of God's people have all become illustrations of what will happen at the end of time. Yet, we don't argue that hell will be waters covering the wicked, or some army destroying them, we like to gravitate to the fire texts. Now there is nothing wrong with this in and of itself, and if we were to read through the Bible and Mrs. White and find the FIRE TEXTS ONLY, then that would be one thing. But since on this topic both the Bible and Mrs. White give definition that they mean when they talk about the final fire. I feel that it is not right to try to explain away their explanation so that we can make the illustration used become the final word.

When God says "I will destroy the wicked like a consuming fire" and even goes on to clarify by saying "I am a consuming fire" we say, "No, my proof texts talks about fire, therefore what God meant to say is "I will use fire to destroy them" so lets change his words to fit our proof texts and not modify the proof texts by the texts that give an explanation. And when Ellen White says "The glory of Him that is love will consume the wicked." well, she also uses the texts talking about fire and builds on it, so let's go with those quotes and say that "Yes, God will show his glory, but that does not consume them, God has to make a literal fire outside of him self to do the job."

When Isaiah says that the righteous will live forever in the eternal fire, while the wicked are killed by it, we cannot believe him, because we have our hell fire texts, only the lost will be in hell fire, so don't believe Isaiah when he says that the righteous will also be in the fire and live in it forever.

Now just because I understand the fire texts to be a way to reach the human mind to indicate the power and the act of consuming the wicked, does not mean that I think that the destruction of the wicked should be taken as not literal (I've gotten the impression in some of the questions here that if the destruction of the wicked is not caused by a literal fire external from God Himself, that somehow I must not believe in a literal destruction of the wicked)

Yes, the wicked will indeed be destroyed, yes the wicked will indeed be consumed. Yes, fire is used to illustrate the intensity of what will happen. Yes the intensity of this event will destroy old planet earth and the righteous will witness creation week as the new earth is created where this earth currently is (and the new earth is not the old earth with a paint job). But when it comes to the details of how this is done, God says that HE IS THE FIRE, Mrs. White said that God's character of love is what consumes the wicked, and Isaiah tells us that the righteous experience the same event as the wicked do, but while the wicked are killed by the eternal fire, the righteous live forever in the eternal fire.

The issue is not over whether or not there will be some literal event at the end where God kills the sinners. The issue is whether God is doing two different thing, something nice to the saved, and a very separate, outside of himself event which is not so nice to the lost, by burning them in the same type of fire that the Catholics used to burn John Hus, or does God do one act, treat us all the same, and for some that act is heaven and eternal life, while for others that act is hell and eternal death. Even your quote closes with the summery sentence "GOD will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it." (Emphases mine) God does it, and as you keep comparing the texts and quotes, you see that how he does it is the same way he purifies his precious ones. It is his love that causes two responses; it's his love that does the cleaning from sin.

If we were to look at the 7th plague, and look up the words in Strongs Concordance, you will find out that these things symbolize the personal presence of God. Thus the 7th plague, the perfect plague, is the second coming of Jesus. To the lost it is the worst plague possible, but to the redeemed it is the blessed hope. Our blessed hope is their perfect, complete and most feared plague. Now because I believe that the 7th plague is the second coming of Jesus does not mean that I don't take that event literally.

I hope this helps to clarify.

And again, let me repeat another illustration I've said before, but is worth repeating: When Jesus was born, the Magi found the one they have been searching for all their lives, and it completed their lives. But to Herod that exact same event was horrible and drove him even deeper into his insanity to try to prevent. Now did Mary give birth to twins, one who was a sweet harmless baby whose birth was a blessing to the Magi and a second who was a torturer to Herod? Or was it two different reactions to the exact same baby and the exact same act of God? The reaction of Herod and the Magi is also a foretaste of what will happen in the end.

Mrs. White also illustrates this by having Jesus give both Peter and Judas the same look that night, and the same expression drove one to repentance and the other to suicide.

Now this can be somewhat of a difficult concept to understand. Few, if any, of us would consider ourselves peers to the great scholar Edward Heppenstall. Yet even he went through his life undecided between these two views of hell, and therefore would teach both, and went to his grave undecided. It took me three years to come to embrace this view. One book that I just recently read gives what I find to be wonderful illustrations that you might find helpful is "The Magician's Nephew" by C. S. Lewis.

[ January 01, 2005, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Kevin H ]

Pastor Dan, I do not believe all the stories of God killing sinners illustrate the elimination of sin and sinners in the lake of fire. The Bible says Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the final demise of sin and sinners. Therefore, it make more sense, to me, to interpret the statements regarding the glory of God as symbolizing literal fire and brimstone, rather than the other way around. There are no examples of God’s glory consuming anyone or anything. This absence should lead us to conclude it is a metaphor. Also, the idea that God punishes the wicked before He destroys them is true too.

2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly…
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Jude
1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Mike You seem to assert that the presence of Christ in His Divinity, His true glory or character, never affected, harmed, struck, killed or even bothered the saint or sinner.

You seem to claim that those coming into His "range of power", whether saint or sinner, are not affected.

You never answered the EGW quote about Jacob's wrestling with the Lord.

Please explain your take on these:


"The beasts and birds were all hurried beyond the sacred portals. A panic of fear swept over the multitude who felt the over-shadowing of Christ's divinity. Cries of terror escaped from hundreds of blanched lips as the crowd rushed headlong from the place. Jesus smote them not with the whip of cords, but, to their guilty eyes, that simple instrument seemed like gleaming, angry swords, circling in every direction, and threatening to cut them down. Even the disciples quaked with fear, and were awe-struck by the words and manner of Jesus, so unlike the usual demeanor of the meek and lowly man of Galilee. But they remembered that it was written of him, "The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up." Soon the multitude, with their cattle, their sheep, doves, and sparrows, were far removed from the temple of the Lord. The courts were free from unholy commerce, and a deep silence and solemnity settled upon the late scene of confusion. If the presence of the Lord sanctified the mount, his presence made equally sacred the temple reared to his honor."{2SP 118.2}


"In the early days of our experience in the message, the Spirit of God often came upon a few of us as we were assembled, and I was taken away in vision. The Lord gave such light and evidence, such comfort and hope and joy, that His praises were upon our lips." {1SM 50.1}

"November 20, 1855, while in prayer, the Spirit of the Lord came suddenly and powerfully upon me, and I was taken off in vision. I saw that the Spirit of the Lord has been dying away from the church."--Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 113.

"But an angel of God met him on the way and controlled him. The Spirit of God held him in Its power, and he went forward uttering prayers to God, interspersed with predictions and sacred melodies. He prophesied of the coming Messiah as the world's Redeemer. When he came to the prophet's home in Ramah, he laid aside the outer garments that betokened his rank, and all day and all night he lay before Samuel and his pupils, under the influence of the divine Spirit. The people were drawn together to witness this strange scene, and the experience of the king was reported far and wide. Thus again, near the close of his reign, it became a proverb in Israel that Saul also was among the prophets." {PP 654.1}

Mike, about your argument that God's glory never killed anyone, that is because it would be the second death. It is only Jesus, who knew the full glory of God and choose to allow my sins to sepperate him from it, who died the second death.

But remember Moses had to be hid in the cleft of the rock and see only God's back, and when he returned needed to wear a vale because he shined so bright that it hurt the eyes of the people to look upon him. When Daniel saw Michael, he fell as if dead, When the angel came to resurect Jesus the soldiers seeing the reflected glory fell as if dead.

A pagan king once said to a Jewish Rabbi, "If your God is so great, why can't I see him? I'm able to see my gods." The Rabbi told the king "Look at the sun." The king replied "I can't it's too bright." The Rabbi concluded "The sun is simply a creation and servant of my God. If you can't look upon my God's servant, how can you look at my God?"

We might argue that the sun has not really been a danger to us, or that the stars never killed anyone, but the reason for this is not in the potential, but in the distance we are from these stars and the elements that we have had (and are sadly loosing) in our atmosphere that has kept us safe from the potential danger.

So, God has limited our exposure to his glory as we either harden into stubble, or be purified by the Holy Spirit into gold that will spend eternity glitering in the glow of that glory.

Ikan, when people fear someone as powerful as Jesus, as when He cleansed the temple, that is understandable. I, too, would not like it if God decided He didn't like me. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But was it His burning brightness that caused them such pain and fear?

Kevin, the story of Moses, and others, meeting God "face to face" does not lead me to speculate that the glory of God consumes flesh. Neither did God's back parts or hand consume like fire. But if, as you say, sinful flesh cannot endure the glory of God, why have so many sinners survived in His presence? Is sinful flesh combustible?

Genesis
32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus
33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

Deuteronomy
5:4 The LORD talked with [the COI] face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Judges
6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he [was] an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.

Ezekiel
20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Exodus
33:18 And [Moses] said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.