Do I have your permission to assume you believe it was Jesus who commanded His people to execute capital punishment? And, can I assume you believe there was nothing wrong with Him commanding it or with His people executing it?


Would you mind answering each of the questions? I have no idea what you believe. Thank you.


Do you think Jesus commanded His people to do things He is opposed to, things He thinks is sinful? Or, do I have your permission to assume, No, you do not believe Jesus commanded His people to do things that were wrong or sinful?


Yes, the COI were stiff-necked. And, in particular, the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer were, unlike the woman taken in adultery, rebellious and unrepentant. Now, with these facts in mind, do you believe Jesus would have command Moses to forgive them and tell them to go and sin no more if it weren’t for the fact the COI were stiff-necked?


Amen! But do you agree that He did not come the first time to execute judgment?


Amen! Do you think those scriptures clearly explain the final judgment?


Amen! But do you agree He didn’t forgive everybody He encountered during His ministry? And, do you think Jesus expected His Father to forgive everybody involved in His crucifixion, that is, to treat them as if they have never sinned?


Amen! But do you think the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer (in the time of Moses) were like the woman taken in adultery? In other words, do you think Jesus would have forgiven them if it weren’t for the fact the COI were stiff-necked?


You didn’t answer my questions. Here they are again. Do you believe Jesus commanded His people to execute capital punishment? And, was it wrong of them to obey His command? Was it a sin to execute capital punishment?

The Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer were not like the woman taken in adultery. They were rebellious and unrepentant. Do you agree? If so, how did Jesus treat this kind of sinner while He was here in the flesh? Did He forgive them and command them to go and sin no more? No, of course not! So, how did He treat them? He merely told them they were going to be resurrected, judged, sentenced to death, punished, and then they were going to perish in the lake of fire. Do you agree? If so, how does this insight help us understand why Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death?

No. You have my permission to go with what I wrote in the previous post. I said several times that I view the counsel in regards to capital punishment to be similar in character to that regarding polygamy and divorce, which is to say that it was not an expression of God's ideal will, which is best seen in Christ, but counsel driven by circumstances, principally the hardness of their heart.

If you wish to see God's character revealed on this question, consider the woman caught in adultery. There we have, by far, the clearest representation of God's view of the matter. We have the words and actions of Jesus Christ in the very situation you're asking about.





We've discussed polygamy at great length, dozens and dozens of pages. If you have "no idea" what I believe regarding this, my writing one more small thing in the light of dozens of pages won't help, I don't think.

I think what I wrote, that these are of a similar character, is clear. God permitted certain things because of the hardness of their hearts.

I've been pointing out that the place to go to understand these things is Jesus Christ. We keep just talking about the OT. We've done this for years. We discuss what Jesus Christ did in the NT very, very little. I don't think this is the way to go.



Again, we've discussed polygamy and divorce in detail, and I pointed out several times that I believe that God's counsel in regards to capital punishment was similar in character to that of polygamy, and divorce. Because of the hardness of their heart, God permitted things which were not His ideal will. His ideal will is seen in Jesus Christ.

IMO you're going at this completely backwards. *First* understand God's ideal will as revealed in Christ. *Then* go back to the OT and try to make sense out of it.



I think God gave them counsel which was similar in character to the counsel He gave them in regards to divorce and polygamy.



I think we see God's ideal will revealed in Jesus Christ. Again, I think we should start out by studying Christ, ascertain what God is like from that, and use Christ as our foundation. Even holy angels were confused about things until the revelation of Christ.



You're talking about the final judgment, right? You're asking me if the final judgment took place in the past, 2000 years ago? No, it didn't. It will occur in the future, after the second resurrection.



What else would Christ have cited besides the OT? I don't understand why you made that point. I think Christ had a clear understanding of what the OT was saying. It was clear to Him. It's not necessarily clear to others. I think it was misunderstood by pretty much all of His contemporaries, and badly misunderstood today as well. I don't think the problem is so much the OT itself, but a lack of understanding on the part of people reading it.



There's two aspects to forgiveness. One is what's in your heart, if you personally have forgiven them, or if you're holding something against them, waiting for them to do something first before you'll forgive them. Christ's prayer reveals His heart, and the heart of God. Christ is forgiveness personified. From this perspective, Christ forgave, and has forgiven, everyone.

The other perspective is that forgiveness must be accepted, and for this to happen, there must be a recognition of the need for forgiveness (aka repentance). From this perspective, Christ could only forgive those who repented and saw their need for it.

For example, let's say I did something which you misinterpreted, and were made at me for years. I haven't done anything wrong, but you have wronged me. But I don't hold anything against you, and forgive you for being angry at me.

This is one aspect.

For our relationship to be healed, you must recognize that I haven't done anything wrong, and that you were at fault, and ask my forgiveness. Since I've already forgiven you in my heart, my saying "Yes, I forgive you," is simply my communicating to you what I was already feeling before you asked me. But you can't experience my forgiveness unless you acknowledge your error and ask to be forgiven.

Regarding the second question, yes, of course. This is the way God treats people.



Yes, they were alike. The woman caught in adultery was NOT repentant at the point in time that Christ forgave her. The goodness of God leads to repentance. It was because of the way that Christ treated her that she became repentant.

Regarding the last questions, they look to me like they've been addressed above.

In saying “no” are you saying Jesus did not command His people to execute capital punishment? And, do you believe there was nothing wrong with Him commanding it or with His people executing it?


I’m sorry, Tom, but your answer is unclear to me. I cannot discern from it if you believe Jesus commanded His people to get divorced, to have more than one spouse, to have a king, or to obey the law in their own strength, or if He would have viewed it as rebellion if they refused to do these things? In saying He “permitted” it are you saying He didn’t command it?

However, in this thread we’re discussing capital punishment. So, the question is - Do you believe Jesus commanded His people to execute capital punishment? Or, do you think He merely permitted it? Please consider the following passage: “And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.”


You didn’t answer the question. Did Jesus command or permit His people to do things that were wrong or sinful?


You didn’t answer the question. Do you think Jesus would have pardoned the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer and sent them on their way with instruction not to sin again if it weren’t for His stiff-necked people?


Yes, I was referring to the final judgment. Do you agree He didn’t come to execute the final judgment? By the way, do you think He came the first time to execute some other judgment?


So, yes, do you believe Jesus used the OT to explain the final judgment. Did Jesus have to add information not in the OT in order to explain the truth about it?


I hear you saying Jesus has forgiven everyone, but we must acknowledge and accept it before we are truly forgiven in the salvation sense. But then your answer to the second question seems to say, yes, God forgave everyone involved in crucifying Jesus and treats them “as if they never sinned”. Which means, of course, they will go to heaven with Jesus when He returns. Is this what you believe?


Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer would have repented had Jesus commanded Moses to forgive them? And, do you think they will be in heaven because Jesus knows it was in their heart to repent?

I said:

Why do you think I didn't answer your question?

Please read what I wrote above.



I'm saying that God permitted it, that it wasn't His ideal will, and if wish to know God's ideal will, look to Christ.



I believe Christ's attitude towards capital punishment was made clear in His dealings of the woman caught in adultery.



God permitted certain things because of the hardness of people's hearts. Remember the story of the hunter father who was constrained to give certain counsel to his son which could have been misunderstood by someone listening in to their conversation? To get God's view of things, we should look to Christ. How He treated the woman caught in adultery, how He responded to the disciples when they suggested destroying the Samaritans with fire from heaven, gives us understanding of how God views these things.



I think He would have treated them the same way He taught the woman caught in adultery.



Regarding the first question, didn't I just answer this? ("No, it didn't.") Regarding the second:





What else would Christ have cited besides the OT? I don't understand why you made that point. I think Christ had a clear understanding of what the OT was saying. It was clear to Him. It's not necessarily clear to others. I think it was misunderstood by pretty much all of His contemporaries, and badly misunderstood today as well. I don't think the problem is so much the OT itself, but a lack of understanding on the part of people reading it.



Jesus had to explain what the OT meant, if that's what you're asking. Also Jesus imparted knowledge that hadn't been seen or known before.



No. I don't know how to respond beyond this, other than I have no clue as to how you could get that conclusion from what I wrote above.

Actually, in thinking about it, I can infer some things. It seems that you're question is assuming that one's character has nothing to do with whether or not one should go to heaven, but only God's feelings towards the person in terms of forgiveness. Is this correct? Otherwise your question makes no sense me.

Assuming this is the case, I disagree with this idea, but feel instead that our character is of vital importance in this matter.



One could say that their actions do not give their impression, but I don't see how one could go beyond that. I wouldn't have any way of knowing what was in their heart, would I? Man looks at the outward man, but God looks at the heart.

Kland, I'm not as smart as some people. Please be patient with me. Again, I cannot discern an answer to the following question from you've posted so far - Do you believe God commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? Consider the following passage, "And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses."

PS - A simple yer or no answer would be helpful.

I did read it, which is why asked the questions. And I’ve reread it, and I’m still unsure of your answer to the questions above. Is it possible for you to simply say, Yes, Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And then you could go on to explain why you think He did so. Would you be willing to do this for me?


Thank you for verifying you believe Jesus permitted the COI to do the things you named above. However, it is still unclear to me if you believe Jesus commanded them to do such things, and if He would have considered it an act of rebellion if they refused to obey Him. Would you be willing to answer these questions for me? It would be greatly helpful.


Thank you for confirming your view of the woman taken in adultery. However, it doesn’t answer my question, namely, do you think Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? I haven’t read where you answered this question clearly enough for me conclude what you believe.


Yes, I remember the story of the humane hunter. But the same question applies – Did the father counsel his son to do something wrong or sinful? More particularly, though, I would like to know if you believe Jesus commanded Moses to do something wrong or sinful when He commanded him to stone sinners to death?


Thank you for answering my question. Now, for another question – Do you think the people who inquired of Jesus if the adulteress should be stoned to death were less stiff-necked than Moses when he inquired of Jesus if the sinners should be stoned to death?


Good, I’m glad we agree Jesus did not come to execute the final judgment or to execute any kind of punitive judgment. Which leads me to ask another question – What do you think we can learn about the execution of the final judgment from what Jesus did while He was here in the flesh? For example, in the OT Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted sinners to suffer punitive judgment and then die. Since He didn’t do anything like this while here in the flesh, what can we learn about the final judgment from what He did do?


Do you think Jesus had to impart knowledge not in the OT because the OT was unclear or confusing regarding the truth about the final judgment? By the way, where in the OT does God describe the final judgment? And, do you think it is clear enough to discern the truth about it?


Let me see if I understand what you believe. When Jesus told God to forgive everyone involved in killing Him you believe God did indeed forgive them, that God had already forgiven them, that they were born forgiven, that God is forgiving, therefore, He forgives everyone. However, God being forgiving is not the same thing as sinners being saved. It doesn’t mean they will go to heaven based on that alone. To go to heaven, they must have characters consistent with those deserving of a place in heaven.

If this is what you’re saying, what, then, do you think we can learn about the final judgment from the fact Jesus told God to forgive those who were killing Him? In judgment, as advocate, will Jesus plead with God to forgive the wicked? And, will He plead with God to save the wicked?


Does the SOP shed any light on the question of whether or not the Sabbath-breaker or the blasphemer will be in heaven? What about the following insights?


Based on the insights quoted above, do you think the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer will be in heaven? Do you think their characters indicated that they would be happy in heaven?

According to how you would understand the phrase, no, it's not possible. I've tried to explain how I understand it by saying it's similar in character to His counsel on the other items I mentioned. I think the reason for His actions was similar for capital punishment/polygamy/divorce. I think His ideal will was revealed in Christ.

You repeated your question, so I'm omitting that.

You repeated it again, so I'm omitting that too.

You repeated it yet again, so I'm omitting that too, except to point out that we've had long discussions regarding polygamy in regards to this very question.



I think the circumstances were different in that Jesus Christ was present in the flesh, with the explicit mission to reveal the Father to us.



I still don't understand why you asked this. Surely you know that the final judgment is yet future, whereas Jesus Christ came 2,000 years ago. So why are you asking if something you know is yet future happened 2,000 years ago.



MM, Jesus Christ was here in the flesh while with us, and wasn't acting in the capacity of protector/sustainer as He did at other times. This has been pointing out. I'm puzzled as to why you're bringing this up again. This has already been discussed.

Regarding what Christ did to help understand these things, the principle thing was the purpose of His mission, which was to reveal God. By understand a person's character, we gain insights into how the person thinks and acts.

Tom, do you agree the following passage says God (Jesus) commanded Moses and the COI to stone the Sabbath-breaker to death?

Numbers
15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Tom, please finish addressing 123226 (my previous post). Thank you.