Tom, you have made it abundantly clear that the glory of God consumes sinful flesh like a fire. Is this insight a disservice to God? an insult to His character? Even if I agreed with you, I wouldn't consider it an insult or disservice - just the truth.

It is in the nature and character of God to deal fairly and faultlessly with rebels and the great controversy. The wages of sin is death, and God is the banker. The law of God, a transcript of His character, requires death for sin. Only God can create life, and only God can uncreate it. He is the source of life. God uses fire and brimstone to punish and to eliminate sin and sinners in the lake of fire. This is His glory.

Mike: Tom, you have made it abundantly clear that the glory of God consumes sinful flesh like a fire.

Tom: I don't think I've ever said this. I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I find it curious that you would state I have made something "abundatly clear" that I have never said.

Mike: Is this insight a disservice to God? an insult to His character? Even if I agreed with you, I wouldn't consider it an insult or disservice - just the truth.

Tom: I'm saying God's glory is His character. You are saying God's glory is a symbol of fire and brimstone. Do you not see the difference?

Mike: It is in the nature and character of God to deal fairly and faultlessly with rebels and the great controversy.

Tom: Of course.

Mike: The wages of sin is death, and God is the banker. The law of God, a transcript of His character, requires death for sin.

Tom: Why? Is this arbitrary? Or is it a law that sin causes death?

Mike: Only God can create life, and only God can uncreate it.

Tom: People are killed everyday in ways which have nothing to do with God's taking action against them.

Mike: He is the source of life.

Tom: Right, which is why separating oneself from Him, which is what sin does, causes death.

Mike: God uses fire and brimstone to punish and to eliminate sin and sinners in the lake of fire. This is His glory.

Tom: The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that to sin wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire. It tells us that sinners will be destroyed by God's glory if they insist on clinging to sin. Since there are texts in inspiration recording that sinners will be destroyed by fire and brimstone, we have two things happening:

1) Sinners are destroyed by God's glory.
2) Sinners are destroyed by fire and brimstone.

It appears to me you are reconciling these two items by equating God's glory with fire and brimstone. I find that to be bizarre.

God's glory is His character. Do you disagree with this? How could God's character be equated with fire and brimstone? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to understand that the fire and brimstone represent God's destructive work as a consuming fire than to make God a simble of fire and brimstone?

1. Okay, maybe I misunderstood your position. From reading your posts throughout MSDAOL somehow I got the impression you believe it is the glory of God that consumes sin and sinners in the lake of fire.

2. I, too, believe the glory of God is His character. But when Inspiration says the glory of God is a consuming fire, I interpret it to mean the glory of God is like a consuming fire, not that it is, or that it burns bodies like fire and brimstone. I don’t have a problem with the idea that fire and brimstone symbolizes the glory or character of God, not any more than I do with Inspiration saying our God is a consuming fire.

Exodus
24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy
5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

2 Chronicles
7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
7:2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.
7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, [saying], For [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Isaiah
10:16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.

3. Yes, the law of sin and death requires eternal death for sin. Why? Because that’s the way God established things. There’s nothing arbitrary about it. If that’s what makes sense to God, then that’s what makes sense. Does sin naturally kill sinners? No, of course not. The Bible makes that clear. But you and I are most likely not going to agree on this aspect of the issue.

4. I disagree. God is always active whenever someone dies. He is either prevents it or allows it. Either way He is in control.

5. If being separated from God kills us, then why aren’t we dead? According to you, being in the presence of God is what kills us.

6. Wow! Did you change your mind? Or, have you been saying all along that God will use fire and brimstone to destroy sinners? By the way, I have changed my mind since we started studying this together. I now believe the expression, Our God is a consuming fire, is a referrence to the fact He will use fire and brimstone to punish and to destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire.

1. Okay, maybe I misunderstood your position. From reading your posts throughout MSDAOL somehow I got the impression you believe it is the glory of God that consumes sin and sinners in the lake of fire.

Tom: I never wrote exactly what you attributed to me, although you'll notice I stated that I didn't necessarily disagree with what you wrote. Here's what I believe:

quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
(DA 764)

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I do not believe that fire and brimstone are God's character.

2. I, too, believe the glory of God is His character. But when Inspiration says the glory of God is a consuming fire, I interpret it to mean the glory of God is like a consuming fire, not that it is, or that it burns bodies like fire and brimstone. I don’t have a problem with the idea that fire and brimstone symbolizes the glory or character of God, not any more than I do with Inspiration saying our God is a consuming fire.

Tom: Inspiration says (talking about the destruction of the wicked) "the glory of God will destroy them." What do you understand that to mean?

3. Yes, the law of sin and death requires eternal death for sin. Why? Because that’s the way God established things. There’s nothing arbitrary about it.

Tom: You seem to not understand what "arbitrary" means, although I've pointed it out several times. "Arbitrary" means "by individual discretion, as opposed to by a law." When you say that "that's the way God established things" that is EXACTLY WHAT ARBITRARY MEANS. (please pardon the shouting). You're saying, "there's nothing aribtrary about it" is also arbitrary. Again, please consider the meaning of the word.

Mike: If that’s what makes sense to God, then that’s what makes sense.

Tom: This is arbitrary too.

Mike: Does sin naturally kill sinners? No, of course not.

Tom: Sin does indeed cause death: "This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

i) The desctruction of the wicked is NOT an act arbitrary (that is, individual discretion rather than by law) power on the part of God.

ii) God is the fountain of life. When one separates from God, one cuts himself off from life (i.e. dies).


Mike: The Bible makes that clear. But you and I are most likely not going to agree on this aspect of the issue.

Tom: Maybe not. I'm not sure what you mean by "naturally." The way I would put it is that sin causes death because one who sins cuts himself off from God, who is the source of life.

4. I disagree. God is always active whenever someone dies. He is either prevents it or allows it. Either way He is in control.

Tom: You're contradicting yourself. If God "allows" it, then he is not "active." "Active" means actually performing, not "allowing." If you understand "active" to mean "allow," that could explain some of our disagreements. For example, you say that God is the author of death. If "author" means "one who allows," then that would certainly be true. Nothing happens in the universe which God doesn't allow, so if that's what "active" means, then God is certainly "active" in everything that happens.

I think this understanding of the word "active" would be unique to you, however.

5. If being separated from God kills us, then why aren’t we dead? According to you, being in the presence of God is what kills us.

Tom: This is why we aren't dead:

quote:

---

Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son.
(FW 22)

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In the judgment, the grace which God extends us now will no longer be extended, and the wicked will die.

6. Wow! Did you change your mind? Or, have you been saying all along that God will use fire and brimstone to destroy sinners? By the way, I have changed my mind since we started studying this together. I now believe the expression, Our God is a consuming fire, is a referrence to the fact He will use fire and brimstone to punish and to destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire.

Tom: I don't understand your questions about my changing. I believed what DA 764 and DA 107 say, and still do.

You changing in a wierd direction it seems to me. Why not change to believe the fire and brimstone represents God's glory? Why make the Creator into something He created? Doesn't the other way around make more sense?

Consider this quote:

quote:

---

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)

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In all who submit to His power, the Spirit of God will what? become fire and brimstone? Does that really make sense?

God is love. Love is a principle which is based on giving of oneself for others. Sin is a principle based on selfishness, isolation, which cuts self off from others.

The principle of love is eternal. The principle of selfishness is suicidal. It cannot exist forever, by its very nature.

You didn't say anything about glory-fire passages I quoted.

PS - if someone has the power to start or stop something he is an active part of the process.

What was the point of the passages you quoted? What should I be commenting on? And besides, I was first

Mike said,

quote:

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PS - if someone has the power to start or stop something he is an active part of the process.

---

Hi Mike, I had hoped that you would benefit something by the very meaningful and skillful presentation of truth by Tom.

According to your statement, since God has the power to know and affect each and every thought of ours, to prevent man's consideration of sin, or Satan's for that matter, that he (God) is therefore an active part in sin, perhaps better said the only active part in sin. For if he has the power to start and stop our thought, than no one else has it, including ourselves. Then the bottom line is it is not our thought but His.

Or did God give us the power to think and judge and charged us with the responsibility of it. That his involvement with our thoughts is to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment, by his spirit, while at the same time leaving us sovereign of our thoughts. That therefore there is an accountability of our thoughts to God, because we are sovereign. That therefore there is the possibility of sin, the wrongful use of the entrusted powers.

Shalom

John, while it is true God can start or stop anything and everything, including our thoughts, words and deeds, He chooses when to and when not to get involved. God is sovereign of everything. That includes us. He could have just as easily prevented Eve, or Adam, from eating the fruit as He prevented Balaam from cursing Israel.

Even though God can start or stop anything, the one thing He won't do, and consequently has tied his own hands in that respect, is that He won't interfere with our free-will, therefore, we choose whether or not to serve Him. We also by that choice also choose to live eternally or to ultimately die the second death.