Quote:

Mike: He is the source of life.

Tom: Right, which is why separating oneself from Him, which is what sin does, causes death.

Unquote.

Interpreting Tom’s view, I might say as follow:

It is Adam’s and Eve’s own will to separate from God, it is their choice. They were created “sinless”, so, if sin does separate them from God, I may say, it is “self” that separate them from the Source of Life.

This separation causes death, which means, they choose to die rather than to live everlasting, their choice is based on their unbelief in God’s word: “…you will surely die.”

So, I can not accept your view Tom, because I believe it is not because of sin, or of self, or of a choice they died, but because of God had created the death as a means to abolish sin and sinners forever from his universe.

They only chose death instead of life, set before them by God (Deuteronomy 30: 15,19) but it is not their own work, their own will or their sin that causes them die. It is God creation that caused them die, death that takes their life.

How can they live if they are not created, and how could they die if there is no death? But death unites in their body after eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, same as the tree of life with it fruits that prolonged life, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is deadly, in it God put the death, cutting their life. God create life in his creation, but God created death ONLY in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

When Adam’s descendant was destined to die because they inherit Adam’s and Eve death body, there is no hindrance for God to kill them for they must surely die. He might kill men using his own hand, or using other means as flood, earth quake, fire, disease, or using the hand of the Devil by permitting him to kill us (Job 1:12).

So, I think, sin that causes death is not correct, sin is only a means where because of it we die (the wages of sin is death, which refer to the 2nd death). It is death it self as God creation hidden in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that killed Adam and Eve (the 1st death), while Adam’s descendant inherits his death body for they were all born in his likeness after his image after the fall where death already unites in his body (Genesis 5:3), meanwhile it is God act at the end of time that killed sinners (2nd death) in the lake of fire.

In His love

James S.

Tom wrote:

Tom: Sin does indeed cause death: "This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

Unquote.

Separates from God and thus cuts himself off from life, as EGW said, doesn’t mean that sin killed them or they killed them selves, but in real sense they were cut off from life, and thus, death is the result. But what killed them, what makes them die, is not sin or self, but an act of God, because they were rewarded with death as the wages of sin.

In His love

James S.

Tom wrote:

God is love. Love is a principle which is based on giving of oneself for others. Sin is a principle based on selfishness, isolation, which cuts self off from others.

Unquote.

I agree, God is love, and due to his love for the righteous and sinless that were redeemed by the blood of Christ, he must abolish sinners, killing them, in order sin and sinner would no longer exist in his new world.

Does the killing of God affect his love, his principle?

He would if he didn’t send Christ to save us back, for Adam’s descendants didn’t deserve to die since:

1. It is not their will to be born in sin and have a sinful nature that by default could only sinning, meanwhile Adam and Eve were created in perfection, sinless and righteous.
2. It is not their will to be born only for to die, meanwhile Adam and Eve were created to live everlasting.

Therefore, by sending Christ to the world to redeem men, God has shown his love, mercy and grace. After that, he has every legal right and could not be blamed for the death of sinners in the lake of fire.

Could God be blamed that might affect his character because he created death in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that caused Adam and Eve death by eating it? No, because it was their own choice.

Is this creating death by the Source of life affect his character?

No, because life and death is only a force that stays in balance until some one exercise it, the same as good and evil, which are also God creation.

Is life – good and is death – evil? Is good – good and is evil – evil?

There is no good things happen when no one is exercising it, and there would be no evil thing when no one is exercising evil. There is no life when God didn’t create it and there would be no death when God didn’t create it. He is the Creator of all things and without him nothing existed (John 1: 3).

Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

But God is not the creator of sin, only he did create intelligent living being with free will choice, that might result in things that is against his will. Therefore, at the end, he must be responsible for what he had created, that is, by sending Christ to die for the world, proving his unselfish love.

In His love

James S.

Once again, Sister White teaches the truth about the wrath of God and the execution of unsaved sinners.

TM 230
The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel. {TM 230.2}

PP 393
Thus it will be when the wrath of God shall be finally poured out. When "the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints, to execute judgment upon all," He will also "convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. Every sinner will be brought to see and acknowledge the justice of his condemnation. {PP 393.1}

GC 541
God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {GC 541.4}

EW 52
Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}

GC 539-545
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

Let us consider what the Bible teaches further concerning the ungodly and unrepentant, whom the Universalist places in heaven as holy, happy angels. {GC 540.1}

"I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." Revelation 21:6. This promise is only to those that thirst. None but those who feel their need of the water of life, and seek it at the loss of all things else, will be supplied. "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son." Verse 7. Here, also, conditions are specified. In order to inherit all things, we must resist and overcome sin. {GC 540.2}

The Lord declares by the prophet Isaiah: "Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him." "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him." Isaiah 3:10, 11. "Though a sinner do evil an hundred times," says the wise man, "and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before Him: but it shall not be well with the wicked." Ecclesiastes 8:12, 13. And Paul testifies that the sinner is treasuring up unto himself "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds;" "tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:5, 6,9. {GC 540.3}

"No fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Ephesians 5:5, A.R.V. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:14, 15. {GC 541.1}

God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}

God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love… {GC 541.3}

… but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}

… A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them… {GC 542.2}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom… It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}

… But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it. Says the psalmist: "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end." Psalm 9:5, 6. {GC 545.1}

GC 627
God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

GC 544
They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

Here she clearly makes a distinction between punishment and death. Clearly death is not the punishment, rather, death puts an end to the punishment phase of judgment. A dead man cannot be punished. And clearly sinners do not self-destruct in the presence of God.

In answer to the title of this thread, she wrote, "Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it." GC 545.

Your post has too long a list of quotes to deal with all of them, but I'll discuss these four, as they are in perfect harmony with what I have been presenting.

{Quote from Mike}
TM 230
The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel. {TM 230.2}

Those who obey not the gospel are choosing death over Christ. They separate themselves from God/Christ, who is the source of life, and hence they die. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner, but God leaves those who have rejected His mercy to reap that which they have sown.

"God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice." (DA 764)

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." (GC 36)

(lumping two quotes together, which both speak of the wrath of God)

{Quote from Mike}
PP 393
Thus it will be when the wrath of God shall be finally poured out. When "the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints, to execute judgment upon all," He will also "convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. Every sinner will be brought to see and acknowledge the justice of his condemnation. {PP 393.1}

EW 52
Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}

What is the wrath of God? I assert that it is God giving those who have rejected His mercy over to results of their choice. This is in perfect harmony with the quotes from GC 36 and DA 764 quoted above, as well as with Scripture:

"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)

"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)

"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)

"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 King 17:17-20)

"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)

"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)

"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)

"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)

"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them....
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions." (Rom. 1:18, 19, 24-26)

{Quote from Mike}
GC 541
God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {GC 541.4}

Notice that God writes that the justice which God executes upon the wicked is "even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited." What does this mean? It means it is merciful. Even in God's wrath there is mercy. Even in the destruction of the wicked, we can see the beauty of God's character, which is identical to what Christ revealed.

Let's tell a deeper look at this GC quote:

God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.

This paragraph is bringing out exactly the points I have been trying to make. It bears reading and re-reading, and careful consideration.

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

The part quoted by Mike is in italics. Notice how EGW highlights God's "mercy, kindness, and love" in the destruction of the wicked. Notice that God would allow them in heaven if he could.

The next couple of paragraphs I'm leaving in for context.

"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late."


OK, now notice the conclusion:

"A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
(GC 541-543)

Notice that God's presence makes the wicked uncomforatable. His presence to them is a consuming fire. They welcome destruction. They long to flee from God's presence.

Notice that the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary on the part of the wicked. This point is very important to understand!! God will take all those to heaven who would be happy there. God will not force the will of those who would not be happy there. He allows them to choose.

In all of this this the beauty of God's character shines. There is nothing harsh, severe or arbitrary in the destruction of the wicked; God is the same merciful, kind and loving God that He always has been!

Tom wrote:

Tom: Sin does indeed cause death: "This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

Unquote.

Separates from God and thus cuts himself off from life, as EGW said, doesn’t mean that sin killed them or they killed them selves, but in real sense they were cut off from life, and thus, death is the result. But what killed them, what makes them die, is not sin or self, but an act of God, because they were rewarded with death as the wages of sin.


Tom: EGW says it is NOT an act of power on God's part; that what kills the wicked is being separated from God, who is the source of life. I'm not sure how she could have stated that it is not an act of God's power that kills them. You are stating the exact opposite of what she wrote.

Here's more of the quote:

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe." (DA 764)

Note the following:

1) God does not destroy the wicked by an act of power.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3) They die because they cut themselves off from God, who is the source of life.
4) They receive the results of their choice.
5) God's presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of God destroys them.
7) If God had allowed the evil angels at the beginning to reap the consequences of sin, the other angels would not have understood what was happening. They would have thought the God was killing them. In order for that misunderstanding not take place, God allowed the principles of Satan's government to mature. At the end of time, when God does allow the wicked to receive the results of their choice, the universe understands that God is not killing them.

I underlined the part being spoken of in part 7. Those who are taking the view that the wicked die because God does something to kill them have not taken this underlined portion into account. The underlined text makes absolutely no sense given that way of looking at things.

Tom, the following insight must be interpreted in the context of overwhelming evidence, not the other way around, as you seem to favor: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."

In light of everything else she wrote about the wrath of God, the punishment of sinners, and their destruction in the lake of fire, it should be obvious that she agrees with the Bible: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all." Jude 14, 15. See also the texts Sister White cites in the quotes I posted the last few times.

The idea that God simply ceases shielding sinners from the normal consequences of sin may sound less offensive than the truth, but it still holds God responsible for doing something that causes the death of sinners. For some strange reason you seem to think that this idea vindicates God, and that the truth implicates Him, makes Him out to be arbitrary and tyrannical. I do not understand it. How is your idea any better than the one you despise? Either way, sinners die due to something God Himself does to them.

Forcing the quotes I posted to serve the idea you are advocating seems unnatural to me. I suspect the word "executioner" in your favorite quote was used in the negative sense, in the case of men caryying out the unjust orders of evil rulers. For example, "When the executioner, about to kindle the pile, stepped behind him, the martyr exclaimed: "Come forward boldly; apply the fire before my face. Had I been afraid, I should not be here." GC 114.

In fact, everytime she uses the word "executioner" it is in the negative sense. This tells me that she uses the word to denote the cruelty and injustice of corrupt rulers. Thus, when she used this same word in the context of God punishing and destroying unrepentant sinners she is clearly saying that there is nothing cruel or unjust about His "strange act". They truly deserve it. God isn't killing them without just cause and due process of law. This interpretation agrees the overwhelming weight of evidence.