Tom, do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe he obeyed Him? I don't see where you answered these two questions. It would be helpful to know what you believe. Please answer these two questions with either yes or no. Thank you.

PS - I understand you believe we should view the words and works of Jesus in the OT in light of His words and works in the NT. I also understand you believe the same principles that led Jesus to permit divorce and polygamy explain why He commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. However, I also suspect you see a difference between Jesus permitting something and Jesus commanding something. Consequently, I suspect you do not believe Jesus commanded people to get divorced or to have more than one spouse. On the other hand, you have avoided saying whether or not you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. I get the impression you believe Jesus permitted it rather than commanded it. Is that correct?

Amen! God truly treats everyone good. In some cases, however, treating them good means destroying them. Ellen wrote:


Tom, do you believe the woman was as unrepentant and rebellious as were the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer when she sinned? Ellen wrote:


Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer were led into sin? Ellen wrote:


Do you believe the woman was guilty of the same crimes and charges?

PS - Do you think Jesus commanding Moses to stone sinners to death guaranteed the sinners would not repent? What about King David? Jesus sentenced many people to death due to David's sins, and it motivated him to repent and to love and obey God. You seem to be saying sentencing sinners to death has the opposite effect of pardoning them. Is that what you believe? Do you believe everybody Jesus commanded Moses to kill died unrepentant and unsaved?

Tom, I disagree with this. God's instructions in relation to polygamy and divorce are permissions, while His instructions in relation to capital punishment are commands.
Take, for instance, God's command to Saul for him to destroy the amalekites and God's rejection of Saul for not obeying His command. In relation to the account of 1 Samuel 15, what your view implies is that Saul was right for not killing Agag and Samuel was wrong for killing him.

You didn’t address my observation. Do you believe Jesus revealed the Father in the OT through His words and works? If so, do you believe Jesus’ revelation of the Father in the OT was a lesser, inferior revelation when compared to His revelation of the Father in the NT?


All throughout this forum and threads you have asserted Jesus’ revelation of the Father in the NT trumps all other revelations. At least that’s the impression I get from what you’ve written. I don’t want to take the time to find one of the places where you’ve said as much, so please simply state your belief here. Do you believe Jesus’ revelation of the Father in the OT is as true and clear as His revelation of the Father in the NT? And, more to the point, do you believe His description of the final judgment in the OT is as clear as His description of it in the NT? Or, do you think He added details in the NT not found in the OT? If so, please name them here.


I’m talking about pardon in the sense of God actually pardoning their sins, that is, pardon is written next to their sins in the books above so they can be permanently blotted out later on. With this definition in mind do you believe Jesus wanted the Father to actually pardon the sins of those who were killing Him on the cross? If so, do you think they will be in heaven? I’m asking these questions because you seem to think Jesus’ prayer for pardon reflects what He would have preferred to do when Moses asked Him what to do with the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. In other words, you seem to be saying Jesus wanted pardon their sins and set them free but He was unable to do it due to the hardness of the hearts of the COI.


Why do you suspect they will not be in heaven? You seem to think Jesus wanted to pardon them and set them free. If so, why? If He was willing to pardon them and set them free, wouldn’t that suggest He felt they were worthy of pardon and salvation and a place in heaven? Otherwise, if they were rebellious and unrepentant why would He pardon them and set them free?


Above you said you guess they will not be in heaven. Why do you think so? Also, do you think Jesus knew in advance they were unrepentant and unpardonable and would not have responded appropriately to pardoning them and setting them free? Or, do you think He did not know for sure one way or another and that He was willing to try to see what they would do but couldn’t because of the hard-hearted COI? I’m asking these questions because I’m trying determine why you believe Jesus wanted to treat them in the same way He treated the woman. Do you believe Jesus would pardon (see definition above) every sinner and set them free? Or, do you think there are times when Jesus would not pardon certain sinners because they are unpardonable? If so, do you think He would have commanded Moses to stone them to death?


What is your answer to the first question above? Do you believe when the Bible says Jesus “commanded” Moses to kill sinners that it actually means He merely “permitted” it? Also, do you believe the COI were less hard-hearted when Jesus was here in the flesh and that it enabled Him to treat sinners differently than He did in the OT? If not, if you believe as many do that they were actually more hard-hearted, what do you think made the difference in how and why Jesus treated them differently? Also, what do you think Jesus meant when He said, “Ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. . . If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.” Do you think Jesus treated them the same way He treated the woman led into adultery?


Jesus said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” Her accusers thought they were perfect and upright. They felt qualified to stone her to death. Roman law alone prevented them. Ellen wrote, “The law specified that in punishment by stoning, the witnesses in the case should be the first to cast a stone. Now rising, and fixing His eyes upon the plotting elders, Jesus said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." And stooping down, He continued writing on the ground. He had not set aside the law given through Moses, nor infringed upon the authority of Rome.” {DA 461.4}

The reason I’m asking the question is due to the fact you are insisting circumstances forced Jesus to treat sinners differently in the OT than He did in the NT. The truth is, however, He gave the rulers permission to stone the woman to death. True, He knew they wouldn’t, and He really didn’t want them to stone her to death, but the point is, He told them to do it. As such, not one of them was able to accuse Jesus of disregarding the laws of God. Now, what does the law say about this particular situation, that is, about the rulers leading a woman into sin for the sole purpose of entrapping a popular preacher so that they can condemn him to death? Would Jesus have commanded Moses to stone her death under such circumstances if such a case had been presented to Him in the OT?


Everything you said about God above is true. No one here that I know of disputes it. The question is, however, do you believe Jesus acted forcefully or violently when He commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you think the holy angels felt Jesus acted forcefully or violently when He commanded Moses to kill sinners? Please answer these questions with a yes or no. Thank you. Of course, please feel free to explain your answer after you answer yes or no.

I think God was working with the reality of the time, and was constrained to do the best with what He had to work with. You've been asking this question for years now. I've answered it many times. I've written and written and written on this. I presented the story of the father/hunter. I explained things in reference to that.

If you don't understand what I think after all this, I'm sorry about. There's other things we can talk about.

You mean by setting them on fire? Something like that? How is this treating someone well?



I don't think how she compared with others matters. She was obviously living in sin.



Why would this matter? I don't understand why you think any of your questions are relevant.

My point is that if we wish to understand God's views of force/violence/etc. we can look to Christ while here in the flesh, whose very purpose was the revelation of the Father. How did Christ treat people? What did He do and say? We have an example of the question you're asking about in the woman caught in adultery. What did He say? How did He treat her?



Why would this matter? Are you thinking if the circumstance were different, Jesus would have said to stone her?



How do you figure?



This is a serious question? If one were sentenced to die, the would be killed, and die. That's the effect of being sentenced to death. If one is pardoned, one is set free, right? So these are different effects. I don't know if "opposite" is the right word, but they're certainly different.

They're similar in character because they are not representations of God's ideal will, which was revealed by Christ while here in the flesh.

What do you mean? Sure I did. You said:



I addressed this by saying:

And thus does Tom, with a few strokes of his keyboard, declare that God's commands are not ideal--at least some of them.

May God open your eyes.

Green Cochoa.

1) Is Christ greater than Christ?
2) Was Christ not revealed at all during Old Testament times?
3) Can there be unequal revelations of Christ, by Christ Himself?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.