I've answered this many times. I've explained that God was constrained in the OT by the hardness of the hearts of the people He was dealing with. His actions were not correctly discerned by anyone but Christ. Christ understood what was happening in the OT, and said "The words I hear of my Father, I speak, and the works I see Him performing, I do." Where did He hear and see these things? From the OT.

I've said this many times.

So when Christ said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." He was saying, "Let me be your picture of God." He was saying that as He lived is how *He* perceived God to be like, from His study of the OT.

So the correct understanding of the OT is given by Jesus Christ. As we study His life and teachings, we see God's true character.

However, if we look at the OT and see things depicting God to be different than the portrayal of Christ, we're not getting things right.

I've pointed this out, and pointed out that even holy angels didn't understand everything until the revelation of Christ.

So the problem is not with God, but with us, and our misunderstanding of the OT. The problem is with us.

In order to help us, because He had pity on us, and loves us, and wants us to understand the truth, God sent His Son in order to reveal Himself to us.



Notice the first sentence:





Inspiration teaches us that Christ is the greatest representation. For example:



or





I've said it is superior to all others. Not "trumps," which has a different connotation. Regarding the questions, I've addressed this above.



Obviously a person would have to individual repent, as the SOP puts it, for this to happen. Christ couldn't have been praying for God to do this, since God can't repent for someone else.



I said I don't know.



God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Christ gave His life for them. Why would you ask a question like this? Of course God wants to pardon people and set them free. You don't have any doubts about this, do you?



No. None of us are worthy.



Do you mean in the sense of having pardon written against their name? If you mean this, obviously this couldn't happen unless they repented. If you mean in the sense of what's in His heart, He forgives because He is love.



I said I didn't know. I said if I had to guess, that's how I'd guess. I said this based on their actions.



I don't think this entered into things.



I don't think this has anything to do with anything.



If this is what you're trying to determine, I can tell you it has nothing to do with the questions you're asking. God loved them, and gave His Son to die for them, and this is why He wanted to pardon them.



Provided this is what they wanted, yes.



If you mean if people can so harden their heart that they can no longer respond to the offer of pardon, yes, I believe this is possible.



If so, what? Actually, I don't think this question matters. I think you're whole conception of things is different than mine, so that whatever answer I give will be interpreted differently by you than what I intend.



Anyway, I think, again, that if it is your desire to understand God's character, the best way to approach this is to follow Ellen White's advice:





When Jesus Christ came in the flesh, His express purpose was to reveal the Father. Everything Christ did was for that purpose. He was God in human flesh. He was a living explanation of what God would be like if He were a human being. It was not possible when leading the COI, and not a human being, for Christ to do what He did as a human being.



I think he means if we don't see our need for Him, we'll be lost.



I think this is an apples and oranges question.



MM, you do realize that Christ wasn't a human being in the OT, don't you? Do you not think this matters?



You've said one right thing here, and a couple of wrong things. The right thing is that Christ responded very carefully, in such a way that He could not be accused of disregarding the law. The wrong things is that He was not giving the rulers permission to stone the woman, nor was He telling them to do so.



I really don't understand why you want to center your studies on the OT. I don't think this is the right approach. I think what EGW suggested is the right approach.



There are quite a few who believed that God will set people on fire to cause them to "suffer torture" (GC 535), and that God routinely did violent things throughout the Bible, especially in the OT.



I can't answer these questions yes or no, as you have certain assumptions built into them that I disagree with. I can say, however, that I believe that the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government, that compelling power is found only Satan's government, that the Lord's principles are not of this order, and not only did God not act violently here (I'm using "violently" in an ordinary sense, not as you use it, which allows for violent actions), but He never did, never has, and never will.

Do I have your permission to conclude, yes, you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners? And, can I conclude, yes, you believe Moses obeyed Jesus?

PS - I understand you believe circumstances forced Jesus to do things He wished He didn't have to do. So, my question is - Do you think He "permitted" Moses to kill sinners or do you think He "commanded" Moses to do it? And, do you think Moses would have been guilty of sinning if he refused to kill them?

Tom, in your long post above you didn't answer my questions directly. I have no idea what you believe in relation to my questions. You insist we study the words and works of Jesus in the NT in order to understand His words and works in the OT. You insist we interpret everything He said and did in the OT in light of everything He said and did in the NT. In the NT Jesus told the rulers to cast stones at the woman. In the OT Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. In the NT Jesus was unable to pardon the sins of certain sinners. In the OT Jesus was unable to pardon the sins of certain sinners. In the OT Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted sinners to be killed. In the NT Jesus told the COI that He was going to withdrew His protection and permit them to be killed.

So, as you can, Jesus treated people in the OT and in the NT in exactly the same way.

I believe God's ideal will was revealed by Jesus Christ while here in the flesh, and that the counsel in relation to capital punishment was similar to the counsel related to divorce, polygamy, having a king, the Old Covenant, attacking their enemies with armed weapons, an "eye for an eye", the cities of refuge, and many other dealings with them. God did the best that was possible under the circumstances, but His ideal will was revealed by Jesus Christ while here in the flesh.



I don't think it was God's ideal will that the sinners be killed. I think His ideal will was revealed by Jesus Christ.



The following comes to mind:



So how Moses should be judged would be dependent upon the light he had.



The best way to understand God's character is to study the life of Christ, as EGW outlined. After having an understanding of God's character, we are in a better position to understand other portions of Scripture. This is what I've been saying.



What I've said is that Jesus Christ demonstrated by His life and teachings how *He* understood the OT, and our understanding of the OT should be in harmony with His.



If this is what you think, I think you've woefully misunderstood what He said.



I haven't argued that God's character changed in any way, but that it has been misunderstood. I've said the best way to understand God's character is according to the advice EGW gave, to spend a thoughtful hour each day meditating upon the life of Christ.

Tom, please answer the following questions: Do I have your permission to conclude, yes, you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners? And, can I conclude, yes, you believe Moses obeyed Jesus?

PS - Do you believe Jesus did not tell the rulers to stone the woman?

MM, I've answered the question the best I can. You have certain presuppositions, so I can't answer "yes" or "no" without buying into those. So I've written out an explanation which accounts for how I see things.

Regarding the PS, Jesus did not condemn the woman, and answered the question in such a way that she would not be stoned. He was clever in the way He answered the question, so that he foiled their attempts to trap him. If you look at Jesus' intent, which is the important issue here (the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter), it's clear that He did not want her to be killed.

Let's not lose focus of the real issue here. This is the real issue. What was Jesus' will? Was it that the woman be killed? No, it wasn't. Was it that she be pardoned? Yes, it was.

Regarding your question, yes, Jesus was in effect telling them not to stone her. If would be as if He said, "Let he who is 1,000,000 years or older stone her" which is a set with no members. Also He was talking about a binary action where not doing something was equivalent to doing the reverse of the action (I'm bringing this up because sometimes not doing something is very different in effect than doing the reverse).

I agree Jesus did not intend for the rulers to kill her. However, the fact is, He told rulers who thought they were sinless to do it. In so doing He did not contradict the law. However, mercy is in keeping with the law. As such, Jesus did not disregard the law when He forgave her. Which came first, though, repentance or pardon? I believe Jesus forgave her because she was repentant. I do not, however, believe the Sabbath-breaker or the blasphemer were repentant. Therefore, Jesus commanded Moses to kill them. True, Jesus wished they were repentant so He could forgive them, but alas, they were unworthy and deserving of death. I believe Jesus would have treated the woman the same way had she been as unrepentant and rebellious as they were. You seem to think Jesus would have forgiven them the same as He forgave the woman had it not been for the hard-hearted Jews. I disagree. By the way, please apply my definition of pardon here.

Concerning whether or not you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners, well, the truth is you are a logical and godly person, so, it is reasonable to me to conclude you believe what the Bible says, which is, "The Lord commanded Moses . . . to stone him with stones". True, we disagree as to why Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners, but the fact is too clear to misunderstand, namely, Jesus did indeed command Moses to kill sinners. It is also painfully clear that Moses would have incurred the wrath of God had he disobeyed Jesus and refused to kill them.

Another question is - Did Jesus ever command someone to kill a sinner when in reality they were like the woman and deserving of forgiveness? I don't think so. What do you believe?

PS - Just in case you're distracted by my use of the word "deserving" please consider what the Bible says about it:

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

You have indicated that Jesus would have wanted to kill someone but didn't have a good chance to. The above inspired passage seems like an opportune time for Jesus to do some killing. His disciples thought so, too. What happened?

When Jesus told the disciples that they did not know what manner of spirit they were, do you think He was really in a way complimenting them but telling them they should not try to be like God? But then, why didn't He call fire down on them as Elijah did?

kland,

Are you supposing that the disciples and Elijah were birds of a feather in terms of their "spirit"?

Speaking of birds and feathers...

I'm not able to create life, as God does, but I can raise animals under my tender care, and love them in a similar way to what God does with us. Now, let us suppose that I have a number of chickens and the bird flu enters in among them. Many birds get sick, very sick. I love them as my pets, having watched over them from the time when they were small. I might go into the chicken yard to save as many chickens as possible by killing the sick ones, mightn't I? Jesus also came to earth to save as many as possible. Even the ones which must die are loved. The love does not remove the disagreeable, painful, and ugly responsibility of purging the bad to save the good. Those which remain are rightly called the "remnant," and this terminology is found in the Bible.

God loves all. But not all are safe to preserve. Sometimes "destruction" is really "salvation."

Capital punishment was a blessing to God's people in similar fashion to God's curse of the ground being a blessing. It's all in how you choose to look at it. These things were given for the benefit and salvation of the righteous.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Please apologize for making this slanderous comment. Thank you.