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Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: Elle] #123698
02/28/10 12:53 AM
02/28/10 12:53 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
It's an interesting idea Mark. If you look at the developments in regard to the World Sabbath of Religious Reconciliation and EGW's statements pointing toward a disaster (not related to the plagues) effecting the United States just prior to the Sunday law, a very different perspective may be gleaned.

I have a somewhat off the wall suspision that Ellen's quote from 9T 28 (1909). {LDE 25.1} and the promises given in Joel 2:30-31 refer to something equivolent to an explosion of a super caldera effecting the United States and occuring soon after the outpouring of the latter rain spoken of earlier in Joel 2:23-29. If I were to attempt to find some natural event that could effect a change on say, the Yellowstone Caldera, I would consider the gravitational effects on the Caldera's magma flow generated by the total solar eclipse that courses directly over Wyoming on August 21, 2017 at 17:35 UT. There is a science to gravitational lensing (caused by the Moon's eclipsing of the Sun) effecting fault lines within the eclipse's shadow. Do I personaly believe this will set off the caldera? I honestly have no idea.

Last edited by JCS; 02/28/10 01:02 AM.
Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: Elle] #123700
02/28/10 02:55 AM
02/28/10 02:55 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Mark
Maybe we have it backwards. The trumpets seals and plagues are what brings on the Sunday laws not vice versa.

According to the following from LDE the NSL will precede the close of probation, which precedes the outpouring of the plagues:

Sunday-Law Enforcement Precedes the Close of Probation

The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes, for it is to be the great test [SEE THE PREVIOUS CHAPTER, WHERE THE GREAT TEST FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD IS SHOWN TO BE SUNDAY-LAW ENFORCEMENT.] for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided.--2SM 81 (1890). {LDE 227.3}

What is the "image to the beast"? and how is it to be formed? The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the beast. It is also called an image of the beast. [THE TWO-HORNED BEAST OF REVELATION 13:11-17 MAKES AN IMAGE TO THE BEAST PORTRAYED IN REVELATION 13:1-10.] Then to learn what the image is like and how it is to be formed, we must study the characteristics of the beast itself--the papacy. {LDE 228.1}

When the early church became corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel and accepting heathen rites and customs, she lost the Spirit and power of God; and in order to control the consciences of the people, she sought the support of the secular power. The result was the papacy, a church that controlled the power of the state, and employed it to further her own ends, especially for the punishment of "heresy." In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends. . . . {LDE 228.2}

The "image to the beast" represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas.--GC 443, 445 (1911). {LDE 228.3}

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: Mountain Man] #123705
02/28/10 06:41 AM
02/28/10 06:41 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
What's your take on the events described in Joel 2:30-31? Is this event before during or after the NSL?

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: JCS] #123706
02/28/10 11:20 AM
02/28/10 11:20 AM
C
Charity  Offline
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Not sure if you're asking me that JCS, but the last part of Joel 2 is one of several texts that supports the idea of a progressive closing of probation - that is, probation closes for some before the plagues start but for others after the plagues begin. I've posted some quotes from Ellen White that the plagues start before probation closes for everyone and had some discussions on other threads about a progressive closing of salvation. Part of those posts are in the thread on the Battle of Armageddon. Sorry I can't remember which threads have the rest of the discussion.

To avoid repetition I won't repost the material here, but since they're relevant to the timing of the national Sunday laws, I do have some observations on the Ellen White quotes that Adventists have assumed for decades rule out the possiblity of probation remaining open after the plagues begin (but not when they end). We need to re-examine those 'proof' statements again.

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: Charity] #123707
02/28/10 11:32 AM
02/28/10 11:32 AM
C
Charity  Offline
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Posts: 4,583
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Here is one of her 'strongest' statements that some believe leaves no possible room for salvation after the plagues begin to fall:

Quote:
It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. EW 280.

Notice in the above sentence and following, Ellen White says it was not possible for the plagues to fall while Christ was in the ‘sanctuary’. But she says, ‘as . . . His intercession closes’, which suggests to me, while His intercession is closing and while He is still in the sanctuary, the plagues begin to fall. So we have a statement that some see as proof that probation for all is closed at the beginning of the plagues, on closer reading may say differently.

That the plagues begin to fall as the intercession of Christ closes is also implied in the next few sentences in the same statement, where she again suggests it was possible for the plagues to fall while He finishes his ministry not only in the Most Holy place but also before the golden altar in the Holy Place.

Quote:
In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. Then I saw Jesus lay off His priestly attire and clothe Himself with His most kingly robes. {EW 280}

This latter statement is worth close investigation. She was shown that every person’s case was decided in the Holiest, that everyone was sealed by that ministry, but that His intercession continued for a brief time there and in the outer apartment when the sins that had been confessed while He was in the Holiest were placed on Satan. To me, all of this appears to happen while the plagues have started to fall.

Ellen White makes a number of other statements that also appear to disagree with our position that probation is completely closed when the first plague falls. Many of these deal with the Battle of Armageddon that occurs in the seventh plague which she links in a group of statements to the parable of the ten virgins and the Loud Cry. Here is one of them (See the Battle of Armageddon thread for more):
Quote:

I saw that none could share the "refreshing," unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. [This suggests those who receive the latter rain are sealed.] We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord, and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy, and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence. {CET 113.1}

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: JCS] #123722
02/28/10 08:06 PM
02/28/10 08:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: JCS
What's your take on the events described in Joel 2:30-31? Is this event before during or after the NSL?

I go along with what Ellen wrote about it. It makes perfect sense to me.

Quote:
In the Saviour's conversation with His disciples upon Olivet, after describing the long period of trial for the church--the 1260 years of papal persecution, concerning which He had promised that the tribulation should be shortened--He thus mentioned certain events to precede His coming, and fixed the time when the first of these should be witnessed: "In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light." The 1260 days, or years, terminated in 1798. A quarter of a century earlier, persecution had almost wholly ceased. Following this persecution, according to the words of Christ, the sun was to be darkened. On the 19th of May, 1780, this prophecy was fulfilled. {Mar 150.1}

"Almost if not altogether alone, as the most mysterious and as yet unexplained phenomenon of its kind, . . . stands the dark day of May 19, 1780--a most unaccountable darkening of the whole visible heavens and atmosphere in New England."-- R. M. Devens, Our First Century, p. 89. . . . {Mar 150.2}

The intense darkness of the day was succeeded, an hour or two before evening, by a partially clear sky, and the sun appeared, though it was still obscured by the black, heavy mist. "After sundown, the clouds came again overhead, and it grew dark very fast." "Nor was the darkness of the night less uncommon and terrifying than that of the day; notwithstanding there was almost a full moon, no object was discernible but by the help of some artificial light. . . ."--Isaiah Thomas, Massachusetts Spy: or, American Oracle of Liberty, vol. 10, No. 472 (May 25, 1780). . . . {Mar 150.3}

The description of this event, as given by eyewitnesses, is but an echo of the words of the Lord, recorded by the prophet Joel, twenty-five hundred years previous to their fulfilment: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." {Mar 150.4}

Christ had bidden His people watch for the signs of His advent, and rejoice as they should behold the tokens of their coming King. {Mar 150.5}

Do you see it this way, too?

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: Mountain Man] #123728
03/01/10 01:01 AM
03/01/10 01:01 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
If I understand your take on her quoted statements correctly, I would presume that you believe the comment about darkness in Joel is in referance to the dark day in 1780. There is one possible point of conflict with this: verses 30 and 31 occur after the latter rain of which is discribed in verses 28 and 29. To the best of my knowledge, we are still waiting for the latter rain.

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: crater] #123734
03/01/10 07:21 AM
03/01/10 07:21 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Originally Posted By: crater
Gordon are you referring to the pressure to participate in activities, "religious" or otherwise?


Yes Crater, pressure to conform and engage, especially in spiritual matters. The underlying tenet of God's love is liberty, freedom to choose. God never coerces nor resorts to subterfuge to invoke our cooperation or obedience. He allowed the fall of man, but He forewarned Adam and Eve with full disclosure. Many events (social & church) lure one into participation unawares, and then when we realize, the conscience says no, but too late. Children of course are especially vulnerable.
__________

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: gordonb1] #123735
03/01/10 07:37 AM
03/01/10 07:37 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

I'm quite sure Heaven views such pressure as abomination, for it's so far removed from God's character and example. But Satan has deceived and seduced many, where we often prefer the sheep-herding and abuse. This is the way of the world, the bullies and their victims. Some are satisfied with this existence, but God has a better way. "All ye are Brethren." Matthew 23:8. "Love one another" 1 John 3:23.
_________________

Re: The National Sunday law is near! [Re: JCS] #123739
03/01/10 04:18 PM
03/01/10 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: JCS
If I understand your take on her quoted statements correctly, I would presume that you believe the comment about darkness in Joel is in referance to the dark day in 1780. There is one possible point of conflict with this: verses 30 and 31 occur after the latter rain of which is discribed in verses 28 and 29. To the best of my knowledge, we are still waiting for the latter rain.

Here's the prophecy:

Quote:
Joel
2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
2:30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Peter applied this prophecy to Pentecost. Here's what he wrote:

Quote:
Acts
2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I believe this prophecy began to be fulfilled on Pentecost and continued to unfold and be fulfilled thereafter. It will finish being fulfilled when Jesus returns and "delivers" us.

Earlier in the prophecy Joel wrote, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month]." (verse 23) It is not clear, though, if the sun and moon events described in verses 30 and 31 will happen before or after the latter rain event. Ellen White was shown they happened after the former rain and before the latter rain.

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