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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Charity]
#123737
03/01/10 03:57 PM
03/01/10 03:57 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Mark, I for one do not think the surprise will precede the outpouring of the seven last plagues. I suspect some will know when probation has closed for everyone. Most likely the 144,000 will know. They will fulfill the grain and grape harvest prayers described in Rev 14:15 and 18. How could they pray for the harvest of souls if they were unaware probation has closed for everyone?
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#123738
03/01/10 04:02 PM
03/01/10 04:02 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Ellen White wrote: "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1. {GC 613.1}
When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2} In this passage she makes it clear probation closes for everyone when the last of the 144,000 is numbered and sealed. And then the seven last plagues are poured out.
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Charity]
#123743
03/01/10 05:16 PM
03/01/10 05:16 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
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Mark, Jesus explained how the surprise will overwhelm, in a warning..."And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and the cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares" Luke 21:34
"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." 1 Thessalonians 5:4
As long as we walk in the light and not in darkness, we are safe, we'll not be overwhelmed nor overtaken, for "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:5-8
But all denominations, including Adventists are "overcharged with..the cares of this life" As a group we are looking far into the future, college plans, retirement plans - meanwhile the earth is slowly breaking up beneath our feet - 8.8 in Chile. As individuals we should be repenting as did Daniel in Chapter 9.
Those with more light are more accountable, thus mercy leaves them first. ________________
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: gordonb1]
#123816
03/04/10 09:44 AM
03/04/10 09:44 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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Excellent point Gordon. The root of the cause for being taken by surprise is what Christ said. But notice that these things the Lord warned against result in a distorted prophetic view, like the Jews had in Christ's day. It is the same today. Adventists who are carnally minded and not in step with the Lord will be surprised because their prophetic vision is impared. The Lord could not correct even the disciple's understanding of prophecy during His earthly ministry. Adventists, myself included, need to examine our assumption that we are somehow immune from major prophetic blind spots. Many of us will be blindsided.
Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 03/04/10 09:47 AM.
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Charity]
#123822
03/04/10 02:51 PM
03/04/10 02:51 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Mark, do you have any ideas how most time-serving SDAs will be surprised? I get the impression a large number of SDAs in North America are unconcerned about prophecy and more concerned about building castles.
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#123882
03/07/10 07:16 PM
03/07/10 07:16 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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I listened to David Westbrook's "Out of the Cities" webinar yesterday. He believes like I do that it will be a fatal mistake for us if we wait for Sunday Laws to leave the cities. He makes the point that althought Ellen White at one point said Sunday laws would be a signal to leave the large cities, she later said repeatedly to leave the cities now. Her view apparently changed. He explains why it did.
I admit I was skeptical of his interpretation at first but I've since changed my views. I'm convinced that if we wait for Sunday laws and ignore her counsel to leave the cities now we do it at our peril.
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#124020
03/12/10 03:02 PM
03/12/10 03:02 PM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
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Posts: 3,113
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We are studying them at church, after the sermon we get together and have a potluck then go into the study. Two of our members are doing it and both have had trouble, so I am kind of waiting for them to finish just to see if a better understanding is there to be unvieled.... To understand the trumpets requires careful, point-by-point study. I do believe that these were future to Mrs. White's perspective. It may be, however, that they are not all future to our current perspective. They may be fulfilling even now. The first trumpet is found in Revelation 8:7. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. (Revelation 8:7) What do these symbols represent? When we can understand the message, then we will be able to understand to what and when it applies. Trees represent leaders, kings, rulers, even spiritual leaders. Grass represents people in general. What is special about the color green? Why is the color of the grass specified? What is significant about "the third part"? How might this differ from the first, second, or fourth parts? The phrase "the third part" occurs 13 times in Revelation out of 15 total occurrences in the Bible. The phrase "the fourth part" occurs just once in Revelation of ten times in the Bible. Are these parts related, as one Bible student believes, to the four parts in Jesus' parable of the sower? Are those of the third part representing those which allowed the cares of this world to crowd out God's light? And does "the fourth part" represent God's true followers, as the good ground in which the seed bore fruit in Jesus' parable? And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (Revelation 6:8) If it does not represent God's people, why would Death have to be given permission to have power over them? Might this first trumpet, then, represent a period of special persecution of God's people, in which they are persecuted and martyred? Would not the "green grass" represent those which have faith, and have been watered by the Water of Life? (See Zechariah 10:1.) The second angel...is it possible that this represented the events of 9/11? Take a look at the parallels: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. (Revelation 8:8-9) What do these symbols represent? Again, that must necessarily be our starting point. The most important symbol in this trumpet is clearly the word "sea." The whole trumpet relates to the sea. We know that sometimes "sea" represents peoples, nations, or multitudes. But here, I believe, the representation is a little more precise than this. I would suggest it represents the same kind of "sea" of which it is said there will no longer be in Heaven. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1) This verse, if not understood symbolically, would be immediately contradicted by those verses which refer to the "sea of glass." It also cannot refer to the people of heaven, noted in Hebrews 11 to be as "the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." I submit that the sea spoken of here may be a more common one, and we need a "sea change" (pun intended) in our thoughts to understand this. It represents the economies/financial markets of the world, including commerce, trade, and business. If this is the case, and "sea" represents economy and commerce, we can begin to understand the rest of the message of the second trumpet. A portion of the sea is said to become blood. That's a way of saying it died. And a portion or category of the "creatures" in the sea also become blood, i.e. die. Perhaps these "creatures" represent organizations, institutions, and companies. They are all composed of people, the more elemental substance of the "sea," so this is just enumerating in more detail what portion(s) of the sea have become blood. The same is true of the ships. Ships in the Bible represent commerce. They represent trade between countries and nations. The represent wealth. For the Israelite nation, King Solomon's reign represented its zenith in the shipping industry, and this corresponded with its zenith in wealth and commerce. The "great mountain," then, could hardly be any other than the "World Trade Center." If its sheer size, height, value, and the number of banks, etc. that resided in it are not sufficiently significant, one has only to look at its name: World Trade Center. This, for the world of commerce, would have been one of its "great mountains." That it burned with fire is now historical fact. It was burning for several months, in fact. Did 9/11 affect the world's economies? Of a certain, yes. Every world economy has been shifted out of balance as a result, and we are still wobbling in its aftermath. Enough for now... Blessings, Green Cochoa.
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#124079
03/16/10 02:14 PM
03/16/10 02:14 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Mark, do you have any ideas how most time-serving SDAs will be surprised? I get the impression a large number of SDAs in North America are unconcerned about prophecy and more concerned about building castles. Some are concerned with building prophetic castles.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: Charity]
#124080
03/16/10 02:15 PM
03/16/10 02:15 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I agree that the sounding of the trumpets awakes all the sleeping virgins, but . . .
I really don't see that the close of probation is before the trumpets. In the Day of Atonement, the trumpets were sound before that day.
I'm suggesting a progressive closing of probation, Elle; first for the unwise virgins and later for those who hear the 'midnight cry' to go out to meet the bridegroom. While that message is given, the unwise discover they have no oil. That seems like an reading of Jesus parable which takes extensive liberties with the text.
Ellen White speaks of 'an overwhelming suprise' that will burst upon the earth and not only on the earth, but on Adventists. I believe that huge surprise is the sounding of the trumpets. And it seems to me (tell me your thinking, Forum) that the reason Adventists are also taken by surprise is that they are sleeping like the virgins, wise and foolish, all of them assuming that Sunday laws must come first before the major judgments of God are poured out.
Tell me, why would Adventists be excluded from the parable of the sleeping beauties? Are there other reasons than a highly devekoped spiritual pride to assume Jesus warnings only apply to others?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: The Seven Trumpets of Revelation, Historical or still to come?
[Re: vastergotland]
#124083
03/16/10 03:21 PM
03/16/10 03:21 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Of the viewpoints regarding the trumpets given above, professor Pauliens seems the best to me.
Regarding Jesus sermon on the last times which has also been referenced in this thread, let me give you the context, which might curb some of the more speculative uses thereof..
So, Jesus is asked about the last times. He starts by warning them against imposters. He tells them the times will be bad, with wars and natural disasters following one after another. (These are all things which have plagued earth every year and decade since Jesus spoke those words. The nonspecificity of this is made more explicit later in the sermon.) Jesus tells them that they will be persecuted and hated among the peoples, and further warns that this harshness of reality will lead many to give up. Then comes some extraordinarily bad times which ends in Jesus return. (Jesus refers to Daniel who ties this to the end of daily sacrafices which seems to me to tie to the crusifixion. Then again, people didnt flee to the mountains that time. And were those days the most desperate times this world will ever encounter? If yes, the worst is 2000 years behind us, if no, the worst is yet to come.) However, after describing the second return, He tells us that the time is hidden for everyone except the Father. (Many have since thought that they share secret information with the Father which not even Jesus is aware of, then again, Jesus did warn about false prophets already..) So, working towards the ten virgins parable, what will things be like before the end? Like Noah, nothing out of the ordinary will be seen (would it be saying too much to make an exception for the boat gaining height on dry land?). People will be going about their daily chores the very day of the arrival of the Son of Man. Believer and unbeliever working side by side. Jesus advice, be always prepeared. Jesus then tells a story about the dutiful servant and the negligent servant. Neither knowing the time of their masters return, noting that the negligent servant assumed he knew about his masters return. Jesus warning, the negligent will cry alone in the dark. The ten virgins, all whom had lamps and all whom sleept. The only difference was that some had obtained oil before they left to wait for the groom. Jesus advice, be always prepeared. The servants who were set to invest their masters money. Most of them did their best and were rewarded, one did nothing and was punished. Jesus warning, the negligent will cry alone in the dark. The judgement of sheep and goats. The sheep had worked to care for the hungry and thirsty, entertained the stranger, clothed the naked and visited the prisoner and the sick. The sheep seem unaware that doing these things were service to the Son of Man. The goats on the other hand are scolded for neglecting to do all the good things the sheep were busy doing. The sheep inherit the Kingdom of God, the goats become burgers on the eternal fire. (Some christians are here accusing Jesus of preaching the "false gospel" they call "social gospel".)
So is there a theme? Three of the five later parts press the importance of being ready, while the other two warn about the consequences of making assumptions and excuses about God and His timetables.
Tying this better to the topic, lets consider why Jesus doesnt add a parable where he tells his diciples that knowledge of the prophecies are an important factor in being prepeared?
PS. Greenie, your not the first and most likely not the last who apply prophecy to events which hit our headlines but which may in time be but a ripple in the weave of history.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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