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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124094
03/17/10 08:19 PM
03/17/10 08:19 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
How is this not merely an atempt at prophetic timesetting?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124099
03/17/10 11:16 PM
03/17/10 11:16 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Nova Scotia, Canada
Seeing that sin and its effects are confined to this part of God's creation, wouldn't this "Big Rip" theory imply that evil has physically affected all of God's creation?

From my understanding of this, God only cursed this planet and nothing else, therefore, the rest of creation isn't under any curse and consequently not physically affected.

Originally Posted By: JCS
Ok, I will try to convey a simple fashion some points on the "Big Rip" theory. The stability of physical laws in our universe depend on the physical conditions in which our universe exits. It's like comparing the universe to a lake reservoir full of thriving trout. (The thriving trout represent the present day consistent physical laws in which we exist as a byproduct of a stable universe.) If the dam that maintains the reservoir bursts, the stable living environment for the trout will quickly evaporate away. If the visible universe begins to "stretch apart" too quickly its "fabric" (which provides the underlining support to things like gravitation) will begin to "rip apart". In another sense, it has similarity to what happens when all the lugs fall off of a spining tire on a car. Imagine what it would be like if the gravity that holds mountains in place started to act differently than how gravity holds us to the surface of the Earth. In the "Big Rip" scenario, the effects of gravity between larger objects begin to weaken before smaller ones. First the edge of the visible universe flights away faster than light. Then the galaxies start to disapear followed by the light from nearby stars. Things start to get real serious when unstable gravitational waves start messing with the atmosphere and techonic plates. Eventually quarks and even time space itself is shreaded to nothingness.

The First Flash model predicts a highly accelerated variation of the "Big Rip" soon after the visible universe has expanded to a critical point called the Hubble Distance. My projection for that event (using FF and the LH measurement made in March of 2008) will be sometime between 2023 and 2024. Ten years later the net effects on nearby objects starts to become critical.

Looking at the first four trumpets reminds me of an idea I had been introduced to when I went to school at Castle Valley. The idea of micro and macro prophecy. Basicly, it's where prophecies have short and long time scale meanings. The Adventist church in general recognize the trumpets to represent time periods from 395 AD to 1844 (and then to the time of the New Earth for the seventh trumpet). I agree with this but I also found a parallel between the seven trumpets and the seven plagues. And why not, there is already a parallel construct established between the seven seals and the seven churches. On a micro scale, there were seven literal churches during the time of Christ. The prophetic timescale commonly used by our church follows a larger "macro" timescale. I do believe that the seven plagues/ trumpets do correspond to very severe natural disasters brought about as a direct result of the pressence of sin (or entropy/ disorder) in the universe.

Following the pattern of Revelation closely, I found that it basicly starts with the seven churches matching up with opening of the seven seals. In the seventh seal is the seven trumpets. All of this is in the perspective of the remnaint. When the stuff with the woman, dragon, and stuff with Babylon start, it seems to be an entirely different perspective of the seven trumpets. This part of the book ends with the seven plagues with a pattern akin to the seven trumpets.

With some slight exceptions in the details of the sixth and seventh trumpets, all seven seem to have connections with a "big rip" disaster. Christ's second coming at the end of the seventh trumpet would be a difficult but necessary act of mercy in death on the wicked, because the terrible effects of living in such a situation would be unnecessarly horrific and would only permit the later torturous deaths of every living thing on the Earth. Of course there is the core reason of his appearance, salvation of his sons and daughters.

If the day comes when things start to happen like I've stated, people will very likely try to find solutions and start pointing toward Sunday observance as a way to stop the progression in physical chaos. It scares me to think that my FF model could one day be perverted in such a way as to support such an event.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: vastergotland] #124100
03/18/10 12:21 AM
03/18/10 12:21 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
I'm assuming your comment is in referance to this statement.

Quote:
The First Flash model predicts a highly accelerated variation of the "Big Rip" soon after the visible universe has expanded to a critical point called the Hubble Distance. My projection for that event (using FF and the LH measurement made in March of 2008) will be sometime between 2023 and 2024. Ten years later the net effects on nearby objects starts to become critical.


It indeed does seem to fulfill the criteria for prophetic timesetting. If I disregarded the distance calculated for the Hubble distance and was unwilling to trust current measurements of the Light Horizon, I would lack sufficient data to discern the timing for such events. As far as determining future physical events via advanced study of physics, the calling of such a thing prophetic timesetting could also be misconstrued as to say that a prediction of a total solar eclipse directly over Wyoming on August 21, 2017 at 17:35 UT is also prophetic.

Perhaps the similarity between the events in Revelation and what is being physicaly calculated is reason enough that I should refrain from any further study in this area.

Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124101
03/18/10 12:52 AM
03/18/10 12:52 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Quote:
From my understanding of this, God only cursed this planet and nothing else, therefore, the rest of creation isn't under any curse and consequently not physically affected.


Perhaps I've misinterpeted scripture and SOP in regard to the future disappearance of the stars and the pasting away of the heavens and the earth. If Ellen White difines that only Earth's atmosphere passes away I will most certainly concede to it. There are other evidences in Hebrews 9:22-24 that seem to point to something corrupted in the heavens. There is alot of chaos evident in astronomy. Stars die, galaxies collide, and things like comets and asteroids ram themselves into planets. I doubt that God is the creator of chaos. If only Earth is recreated will the rest of the visible universe continue to as it does now?

I should add that sin's place of origin was with Lucifer in Heaven. In order for sin to be fully purged, all things effected by it must be cleansed.

Last edited by JCS; 03/18/10 01:18 AM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124102
03/18/10 01:22 AM
03/18/10 01:22 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Does anyone have any comments to line #124091?

Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124103
03/18/10 02:27 AM
03/18/10 02:27 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
I found an answer from Ellen White that evidences that sin has effected our universe in such a manner that it requires purification.

Quote:
As in the final atonement the sins of the truly penitent are to be blotted from the records of heaven, no more to be remembered or come into mind, so in the type they were borne away into the wilderness, forever separated from the congregation. {PP 358.1}
Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat. {PP 358.2}
Thus in the ministration of the tabernacle, and of the temple that afterward took its place, the people were taught each day the great truths relative to Christ's death and ministration, and once each year their minds were carried forward to the closing events of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, the final purification of the universe from sin and sinners. {PP 358.3}

Last edited by JCS; 03/18/10 02:32 AM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124105
03/18/10 06:52 AM
03/18/10 06:52 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: JCS
I'm assuming your comment is in referance to this statement.

Quote:
The First Flash model predicts a highly accelerated variation of the "Big Rip" soon after the visible universe has expanded to a critical point called the Hubble Distance. My projection for that event (using FF and the LH measurement made in March of 2008) will be sometime between 2023 and 2024. Ten years later the net effects on nearby objects starts to become critical.


It indeed does seem to fulfill the criteria for prophetic timesetting. If I disregarded the distance calculated for the Hubble distance and was unwilling to trust current measurements of the Light Horizon, I would lack sufficient data to discern the timing for such events. As far as determining future physical events via advanced study of physics, the calling of such a thing prophetic timesetting could also be misconstrued as to say that a prediction of a total solar eclipse directly over Wyoming on August 21, 2017 at 17:35 UT is also prophetic.
But the core of what you are doing here isnt determining future physical events through physics but rather you appear trying to validate your interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy through your physics theory. To make your solar eclipse analogy comparable, you should add to it that: "...prediction of a total solar eclipse directly over Wyoming on August 21, 2017 at 17:35 UT and this is the darkening of the sun mentioned in revelation 9:2."
Quote:

Perhaps the similarity between the events in Revelation and what is being physicaly calculated is reason enough that I should refrain from any further study in this area.
That leads me to my second concern. While I dont know much about physics, I do know enough about science to wonder wether what you are doing here acctually qualifies as "study" in any scientific sence of the word. Of course it is possible that you do have a study but have chosen not to share it on this forum. Maybe you can share your real study as well?

Your willingness to change your story on suggestions that this or that bibleverse or this or that ellen-quote might not be a perfect fit further suggests that your work really is not about physics or astronomy or even theology.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124106
03/18/10 07:49 AM
03/18/10 07:49 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
As the serious researcher I assume you are, you of course went looking for Horavas original article/articles to have a look at the math behind the SA synopsis. I have tried to look for it myself but unfortunately lack the time to distill it out of the 65 articles Horava has authored or co-authored since 2007. Could you tell us which article/s you read while researching Horavas work?
Originally Posted By: JCS
After studying December's issue of Scientific American I stumbled across an article refering to "Horava gravity". The physicist Petr Horava is working to prove his theory that a time space phase transition occurs between general relativity (which has low energy) and quantum gravity (high energy). I was truely amazed to find my concept of a dimensional phase transition occuring between quantum physics and GR to ever be published in SA, let alone by someone from Burkley. Here's the article:
Quote:
Splitting Time from Space—New Quantum Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime
Buzz about a quantum gravity theory that sends space and time back to their Newtonian roots
By Zeeya Merali
Was Newton right and Einstein wrong? It seems that unzipping the fabric of spacetime and harking back to 19th-century notions of time could lead to a theory of quantum gravity.
Physicists have struggled to marry quantum mechanics with gravity for decades. In contrast, the other forces of nature have obediently fallen into line. For instance, the electromagnetic force can be described quantum-mechanically by the motion of photons. Try and work out the gravitational force between two objects in terms of a quantum graviton, however, and you quickly run into trouble—the answer to every calculation is infinity. But now Petr HoYava, a physicist at the University of California, Berkeley, thinks he understands the problem. It’s all, he says, a matter of time.
More specifically, the problem is the way that time is tied up with space in Einstein’s theory of gravity: general relativity. Einstein famously overturned the Newtonian notion that time is absolute—steadily ticking away in the background. Instead he argued that time is another dimension, woven together with space to form a malleable fabric that is distorted by matter. The snag is that in quantum mechanics, time retains its Newtonian aloofness, providing the stage against which matter dances but never being affected by its presence. These two conceptions of time don’t gel.
The solution, HoYava says, is to snip threads that bind time to space at very high energies, such as those found in the early universe where quantum gravity rules. “I’m going back to Newton’s idea that time and space are not equivalent,” HoYava says. At low energies, general relativity emerges from this underlying framework, and the fabric of spacetime restitches, he explains.
HoYava likens this emergence to the way some exotic substances change phase. For instance, at low temperatures liquid helium’s properties change dramatically, becoming a “superfluid” that can overcome friction. In fact, he has co-opted the mathematics of exotic phase transitions to build his theory of gravity. So far it seems to be working: the infinities that plague other theories of quantum gravity have been tamed, and the theory spits out a well-behaved graviton. It also seems to match with computer simulations of quantum gravity.
HoYava’s theory has been generating excitement since he proposed it in January, and physicists met to discuss it at a meeting in November at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Ontario. In particular, physicists have been checking if the model correctly describes the universe we see today. General relativity scored a knockout blow when Einstein predicted the motion of Mercury with greater accuracy than Newton’s theory of gravity could.
Can HoYYava gravity claim the same success? The first tentative answers coming in say “yes.” Francisco Lobo, now at the University of Lisbon, and his colleagues have found a good match with the movement of planets.
Others have made even bolder claims for HoYava gravity, especially when it comes to explaining cosmic conundrums such as the singularity of the big bang, where the laws of physics break down. If HoYava gravity is true, argues cosmologist Robert Brandenberger of McGill University in a paper published in the August Physical Review D, then the universe didn’t bang—it bounced. “A universe filled with matter will contract down to a small—but finite—size and then bounce out again, giving us the expanding cosmos we see today,” he says. Brandenberger’s calculations show that ripples produced by the bounce match those already detected by satellites measuring the cosmic microwave background, and he is now looking for signatures that could distinguish the bounce from the big bang scenario.
HoYava gravity may also create the “illusion of dark matter,” says cosmologist Shinji Mukohyama of Tokyo University. In the September Physical Review D, he explains that in certain circumstances HoYava’s graviton fluctuates as it interacts with normal matter, making gravity pull a bit more strongly than expected in general relativity. The effect could make galaxies appear to contain more matter than can be seen. If that’s not enough, cosmologist Mu-In Park of Chonbuk National University in South Korea believes that HoYava gravity may also be behind the accelerated expansion of the universe, currently attributed to a mysterious dark energy. One of the leading explanations for its origin is that empty space contains some intrinsic energy that pushes the universe outward. This intrinsic energy cannot be accounted for by general relativity but pops naturally out of the equations of HoYava gravity, according to Park.
HoYava’s theory, however, is far from perfect. Diego Blas, a quantum gravity researcher at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) in Lausanne has found a “hidden sickness” in the theory when double-checking calculations for the solar system. Most physicists examined ideal cases, assuming, for instance, that Earth and the sun are spheres, Blas explains: “We checked the more realistic case, where the sun is almost a sphere, but not quite.” General relativity pretty much gives the same answer in both the scenarios. But in HoYava gravity, the realistic case gives a wildly different result.
Along with Sergei M. Sibiryakov, also at EPFL, and Oriol Pujolas of CERN near Geneva, Blas has reformulated HoYava gravity to bring it back into line with general relativity. Sibiryakov presented the group’s model in September at a meeting in Talloires, France.
HoYava welcomes the modifications. “When I proposed this, I didn’t claim I had the final theory,” he says. “I want other people to examine it and improve it.”
Gia Dvali, a quantum gravity expert at CERN, remains cautious. A few years ago he tried a similar trick, breaking apart space and time in an attempt to explain dark energy. But he abandoned his model because it allowed information to be communicated faster than the speed of light.
“My intuition is that any such models will have unwanted side effects,” Dvali thinks. “But if they find a version that doesn’t, then that theory must be taken very seriously.”



Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: vastergotland] #124110
03/18/10 05:45 PM
03/18/10 05:45 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
In reply to västergötland's first statement, my studies are primarly theoretical in nature. The building of theories require close examination of all evident facts. The scriptural components are not used as evident facts but do often provide leads in new areas of research. This is how my method of study on the First Flash model has been conducted for the past few years. I do concede to have looked at the future predictions in FF and attempted to pair them up with prophetic statements. (Perhaps my actions in this regard are wrong.) In my mind, the idea of the entire visible universe ripping itself apart is nothing short of a prophetic event. If you've read everything in this thread you will already know that it has been my primary focus to discern the time spacial mechanics of the visible universe in an effort to reconcile the apparent conflict of the Biblical record with the current cosmological knowledge we have today. Everything else is a side note or after thought.

On your second statement, I first came across Horava-Lifshitz gravity in an article posted in Scientific American. I was instantly intrigued and immediately sought to find the actual theory. (It isn't perfect and does in fact have some key problems.) I am assuming you are in search of the actual math behind Petr Horava's theory. If this is the case the link provided should be very helpful.

http://www.ift.uni.wroc.pl/~planckscale/lectures/1-Monday/8-Weinfurtner.pdf.



Last edited by JCS; 03/18/10 05:47 PM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124111
03/18/10 06:31 PM
03/18/10 06:31 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Quote:
But the core of what you are doing here isnt determining future physical events through physics but rather you appear trying to validate your interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy through your physics theory. To make your solar eclipse analogy comparable, you should add to it that: "...prediction of a total solar eclipse directly over Wyoming on August 21, 2017 at 17:35 UT and this is the darkening of the sun mentioned in revelation 9:2."


Exactly, I do tend to post things in a manner that forces readers to study my statements more closely. (with exception to trying to validate my interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy through my physics theory, this isn't my intent at all) I didn't originally believe that the entire universe would brake down at the second coming. I deduced this from comparing FF predictions with prophecy after seeing parallels.

my own quote:
Quote:
Perhaps the similarity between the events in Revelation and what is being physicaly calculated is reason enough that I should refrain from any further study in this area.


The reason I said this is simple. I have faith in SOP and in SOP Ellen condems time setting of prophecy. If my actions of finding parallels between prophecy and FF predictions is an act of time setting, then I am more than willing to stop. The form of study I'm refering to in this quote is the comparison of First Flash model predictions with future biblical prophecies.

västergötland
Quote:
That leads me to my second concern. While I dont know much about physics, I do know enough about science to wonder whether what you are doing here actually qualifies as "study" in any scientific sence of the word. Of course it is possible that you do have a study but have chosen not to share it on this forum. Maybe you can share your real study as well?

Your willingness to change your story on suggestions that this or that bibleverse or this or that ellen-quote might not be a perfect fit further suggests that your work really is not about physics or astronomy or even theology.


My studies tend to be mathmatical in nature. Revealing my actual work here would probably lack any benefit and would more or less result in wasted time. On the point of my "willingness to change my story" I've never said I'm willing to ignore genuine evidence in light of possible conflicts in theology. If it is prefered that I refrain from claiming predictions in FF to have prophetic parallels, I don't mind letting others draw their own conclusions. My work with this cosmological model is physical in nature, its biblical applications are subject to theological debate. On that point, I am an open minded person. I try to not let bias sway my opinion in regard to truth. Unlike the other 98%, I neither see a glass half empty nor half full. At such a point it is simultaneously 50% water and 50% air. My point being, all true information is needed to provide a clear complete picture on any subject.

I should add, if there is a paticular area in my research that you have interest in, I am more than willing to share. If it is your desire that I divulge my work in its entirety into this thread then your wish is unrealistic. I've compiled thousands of pages of notes, graphs and calculations that have not yet even been scaned or typed into digital media. It would take me months just to type and scan everything and I kinda doubt the administrator would react very kindly if I dumped that much data onto their server. (I could be wrong though.)

Last edited by JCS; 03/18/10 07:41 PM.
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