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Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Green Cochoa] #125404
05/17/10 07:31 PM
05/17/10 07:31 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Thanks, GC.

I should have included this in my last post, which follows my concluding quote:
Quote:
The strongest evidence of man's fall from a higher state is the fact that it costs so much to return. The way of return can be gained only by hard fighting, inch by inch, hour by hour. In one moment, by a hasty, unguarded act, we may place ourselves in the power of evil; but it requires more than a moment to break the fetters and attain to a holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun; but its accomplishment will require toil, time, perseverance, patience, and sacrifice. {MH 452.2}

I was going to highlight the most important points, but I would have highlighted the whole thing! It is clear that one hasty moment can cause our fall, but to rise again requires "more than a moment" and needs from us "hard fighting" and "toil, time, perseverance, patience, and sacrifice." As in climbing Mount Everest so also in our climb toward the heights of glory to which we are called - going up is more difficult than going down.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125405
05/17/10 08:13 PM
05/17/10 08:13 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
A:"Easy" can mean two things:
1) It is easier to fall off a bike than to ride it because it takes less effort.
2) It is easier to ride a bike than to fall off it because it is less painful.

R is talking about #1. Tom is talking about #2. That being the case, I agree with both.

However, God recognizes our free moral agency, but the wind does not.

T:I mean easy both ways. It takes more effort to fight against God, and it's more painful.

A:In the rest of your post, I didn't see one that clearly shows that following God is less difficult.


Just look at your own personal experience. This shouldn't be difficult to see. Think of when you've been actively fighting against God, and when you've been in peace with Him and serving Him, and ask yourself which was more difficult.

Quote:
However, Jesus said that the road to life is difficult.


No, He didn't. He said it was "tethlimmene;" which is "narrow," not "difficult."

The SOP comments on this verse, as already cited:

Quote:
Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way. All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments, there are warnings not to go on. God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves. It is true that Satan's path is made to appear attractive, but it is all a deception; in the way of evil there are bitter remorse and cankering care. We may think it pleasant to follow pride and worldly ambition, but the end is pain and sorrow. Selfish plans may present flattering promises and hold out the hope of enjoyment, but we shall find that our happiness is poisoned and our life embittered by hopes that center in self. In the downward road the gateway may be bright with flowers, but thorns are in the path. The light of hope which shines from its entrance fades into the darkness of despair, and the soul who follows that path descends into the shadows of unending night. (MB 139;emphasis mine)


Do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward path the easy road. Sounds like we're having trouble believing how good the Good News is! Can it really be case that the upward path is not the hard one, and the downward path the easy one? Yes indeed! This is the truth! Rejoice!

Quote:

Matthew 7:13-14 (New King James Version)

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Furthermore, we are told to strive to enter the narrow gate, but I know of no verse that says we need to strive to be lost.


I quoted Gal. 5 earlier. Also common sense should tell you that God wouldn't allow you to be lost without doing anything about it. Do you know the poem the hound from heaven? Here's how it starts:

Quote:
FLED Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’


It communicates the truth that God loves us, and searches for us, and will leave no stone unturned, within the constraints of agape, for our salvation.

Quote:

Luke 13:24 (New King James Version)

“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The SOP also teaches that the Christian life is not one of ease.


Of course not. No one has suggested this. What I've said is that:

1.The yoke of Christ is easy, and His burden light.
2.The yoke of sin is hard, and its burden heavy.
3.It's easier to serve God than it is to fight against Him.
4.If we consider the times in our lives when we've fought against God, and when we've been closest to Him, we will see from our own experience that the times that we have been closest to Him bear testimony to Jesus' words that His yoke is easy, and His burden light, and that these times were easier then the other.
5.We should not conclude that the straight (or narrow) path is the hard one, and the broad path is the easy one.



Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125407
05/17/10 10:53 PM
05/17/10 10:53 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Every Christian must be a learner in the school of Christ; and there is need of diligent and persevering effort to reach that standard of righteousness which God's word requires. {LP 232.2}

This work of self-subduing requires determined, continuous effort. In fighting the good fight of faith, obtaining precious victories, we are laying hold of eternal life. This warfare requires most strenuous effort, the exertion of all our powers. We are to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. {YI, December 22, 1886 par. 6}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125408
05/17/10 11:03 PM
05/17/10 11:03 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Just look at your own personal experience. This shouldn't be difficult to see. Think of when you've been actively fighting against God, and when you've been in peace with Him and serving Him, and ask yourself which was more difficult.

I've never actively fought against God. My greatest failures are when I just let myself do what comes naturally. No effort at all, and I reap corruption. Just as the SOP says.

Peace with God only comes through stern battles with self. When I put forth every effort to obey, especially against the clamors of my nature, I have peace.

Originally Posted By: Tom
No, He didn't. He said it was "tethlimmene;" which is "narrow," not "difficult."

Have you read EGW's narrow way vision? Narrow is difficult. The path gets harder.

Of course, falling off the path would be much more painful.

Originally Posted By: Tom
The SOP comments on this verse, as already cited:

Again, you are conflating easy=less effort and easy=less pain.

As I said, I agree with you that God's way leads to less pain. But you said you are also saying that it takes less effort. That's where we disagree. But your quote is stating facts that (I think) everyone here agrees with.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125411
05/17/10 11:38 PM
05/17/10 11:38 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: arnold
"Easy" can mean two things:
1) It is easier to fall off a bike than to ride it because it takes less effort.
2) It is easier to ride a bike than to fall off it because it is less painful.

R is talking about #1. Tom is talking about #2. That being the case, I agree with both.

However, God recognizes our free moral agency, but the wind does not.

I mean easy both ways. It takes more effort to fight against God, and it's more painful.

Let me try to clarify something. Maybe we're talking past each other.

Are you saying that being holy requires LESS effort that being corrupt?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125414
05/18/10 01:45 PM
05/18/10 01:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
No. I'm saying the following:

1.The yoke of Christ is easy, and His burden light.
2.The yoke of sin is hard, and its burden heavy.
3.It's easier to serve God than it is to fight against Him.
4.If we consider the times in our lives when we've fought against God, and when we've been closest to Him, we will see from our own experience that the times that we have been closest to Him bear testimony to Jesus' words that His yoke is easy, and His burden light, and that these times were easier then the other.
5.We should not conclude that the straight (or narrow) path is the hard one, and the broad path is the easy one.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125415
05/18/10 01:51 PM
05/18/10 01:51 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:No, He didn't. He said it was "tethlimmene;" which is "narrow," not "difficult."

a:Have you read EGW's narrow way vision? Narrow is difficult. The path gets harder.

Of course, falling off the path would be much more painful.


"tethlimmene" is a Greek word. It means "narrow," not "difficult." Narrow is a different concept than difficult. Narrow has to do with options. There's only one way to be saved, which is Jesus Christ. He is the narrow, or straight, way.

But we should not conclude that the narrow way is the difficult path, and the wide path is the easy one.

"Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way."

It seems to me that this is being stated very clearly.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125420
05/18/10 02:37 PM
05/18/10 02:37 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:23-24)


Easy? Narrow or small is easy?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 05/18/10 02:38 PM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125424
05/18/10 03:32 PM
05/18/10 03:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
"tethlimmene" is a Greek word. It means "narrow," not "difficult." Narrow is a different concept than difficult. Narrow has to do with options. There's only one way to be saved, which is Jesus Christ. He is the narrow, or straight, way.

The word which some versions translate as "difficult" is thlibo in v. 14, whose meaning is

1) to press (as grapes), press hard upon
2) a compressed way
2a) narrow straitened, contracted
3) metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress

Quote:
A: Are you saying that being holy requires LESS effort that being corrupt?
T: No.

?
I'm confused, since you said "It takes more effort to fight against God."

Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Rosangela] #125427
05/18/10 04:48 PM
05/18/10 04:48 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Here's what I'm saying:

1.The yoke of Christ is easy, and His burden light.
2.The yoke of sin is hard, and its burden heavy.
3.It's easier to serve God than it is to fight against Him.
4.If we consider the times in our lives when we've fought against God, and when we've been closest to Him, we will see from our own experience that the times that we have been closest to Him bear testimony to Jesus' words that His yoke is easy, and His burden light, and that these times were easier then the other.
5.We should not conclude that the straight (or narrow) path is the hard one, and the broad path is the easy one.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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