You said exactly the same thing as you said last time, and I understood it just as much as I did last time. Let me try again.

Do you believe that being holy requires MORE effort, or LESS effort, or the SAME effort as being corrupt?

Did you understand the reference to the poem I gave? What do understand the poem to be saying? Do you agree with the poem?

Regarding the question about corrupt, the following by A. T. Jones comes to mind (I'll quote it in the following post).

When the SOP tells us not to conclude that the narrow path is the hard one, and the broad path the easy one, doesn't this mean that the broad path is not the easy one, and the narrow one is not the difficult one? It seems to me this should make clear that the few translations which have "difficult" instead of "narrow" or "straight" (which by far most translations have) are not getting it right.

(The following is by A. T. Jones, "Shall it be Grace or Sin?")

It can never be repeated too often, that under the reign of grace it is just as easy to do right, as under the reign of sin it is easy to do wrong. This must be so; for if there is not more power in grace than there is in sin, then there can be no salvation from sin. But there is salvation from sin; this no one who believes Christianity can deny.

Yet salvation from sin certainly depends upon there being more power in grace than there is in sin. Then, there being more power in grace than there is in sin, it cannot possibly be otherwise than that wherever the power of grace can have control, it will be just as easy to do right as without this it is easy to do wrong.

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power - the power of sin - that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fulness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all; it is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

How much more power, then, is there in grace than there is in sin? Let me think a moment. Let me ask myself a question or two. Whence comes grace? - From God, to be sure. "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Whence comes sin? - From the devil, of course. Sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Well, then, how much more power is there in grace than there is in sin? It is as plain as A B C that there is just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, as there is more power in God than there is in the devil. It is therefore also perfectly plain that the reign of grace is the reign of God; and that the reign of sin is the reign of Satan. And is it not therefore perfectly plain also, that it is just as easy to serve God by the power of God as it is to serve Satan with the power of Satan?

Where the difficulty comes in, in all this, is that so many people try to serve God with the power of Satan. But that can never be done. "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt." Men cannot gather grapes of thorns, nor figs of thistles. The tree must be made good, root and branch. It must be made new. "Ye must be born again." "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Let no one ever attempt to serve God with anything but the present, living power of God, that makes him a new creature; with nothing but the much more abundant grace that condemns sin in the flesh, and reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Then the service of God will indeed be in "newness of life;" then it will be found that his yoke is indeed "easy" and his burden "light;" then his service will be found indeed to be with "joy unspeakable and full of glory."

Did Jesus ever find it difficult to do right? Every one will instantly say, No. But why? he was just as human as we are. He took flesh and blood the same as ours. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." And the kind of flesh that he was made in this world, was precisely such as was in this world. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." "In all things"! It does not say, In all things but one. There is no exception. He was made in all things like as we are. He was of himself as weak as we are; for he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

Why, then, being in all things like as we are, did he find it always easy to do right? - Because he never trusted to himself, but his trust was always in God alone. All his dependence was upon the grace of God. He always sought to serve God, only with the power of God. And therefore the Father dwelt in him, and did the works of righteousness. Therefore it was always easy for him to do right. But as he is, so are we in this world. He has left us an example, that we should follow his steps. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," as well as in him. All power in heaven and in earth is given unto him; and he desires that you may be strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power. "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;" and he strengthens you with might by his Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be "filled with all the fulness of God."

True, Christ partook of the divine nature, and so do you if you are a child of promise, and not of the flesh; for by the promises ye are partakers of the divine nature. There was nothing given to him in this world, and he had nothing in this world, that is not freely given to you, or that you may not have.

All this is in order that you may walk in newness of life; that henceforth you may not serve sin; that you may be the servant of righteousness only; that you may be freed from sin; that sin may not have dominion over you; that you may glorify God on the earth; and that you may be like Jesus. And therefore "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.... Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." And I "beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

Tom,

I haven't read the long quote yet, but it doesn't look like an answer to my questions. My first one was binary; the second one only had three options. An answer would take only one word: more, less, same.

Can you answer it? You can give all the explanations you want, but at least answer the very straightforward question.

BTW, it is "strait" not "straight" in the verse. "Straight" is not difficult, but "strait" is.

The quote addresses the corrupt question. If one chooses to serve God, then it's easier to not be corrupt than not, because grace is more powerful than sin. If one chooses not to serve God, then it's not only difficult but impossible not to be corrupt.

Regarding "straight" (or spelled "strait") and "narrow"

Here are translations from Online Parallel Bible





So in addition to the 17 translations cited earlier in English, the main translations of these other 5 languages all convey the same meaning (the Portuguese is particularly nice, the idea being more or less narrow and pressed together).

From the lexicon:





"To crowd" fits well with the Portuguese "apertado," the idea being that there's not a lot of room.

The SOP tells us that we should not conclude that the narrow path is the difficult one.

The evidence is overwhelming that the path being described is not "difficult." Indeed, saying we should not conclude that this narrow path is the difficult one should set the matter to rest once and for all. How could one say this more clearly?

By the way, what's the advantage to thinking that the path to heaven is the difficult one? How is this good news? How does this agree with Jesus' claim that His yoke is easy and His burden light?

So, since we are not grace-filled by default, you're saying that being holy requires MORE effort than being corrupt. Then I agree. That wasn't so bad.

There are two paths. One is narrow, and one is broad. We should not conclude that the narrow path is the difficult one. That the narrow path is difficult is what I've been speaking against. I've been hearing several tying to say that the narrow path is difficult, but I understand the SOP is very clear that this is not the case.

Also Jesus Christ tells us that His yoke is easy and His burden light.

Once more, this is what I've been saying:

1.The yoke of Christ is easy, and His burden light.
2.The yoke of sin is hard, and its burden heavy.
3.It's easier to serve God than it is to fight against Him.
4.If we consider the times in our lives when we've fought against God, and when we've been closest to Him, we will see from our own experience that the times that we have been closest to Him bear testimony to Jesus' words that His yoke is easy, and His burden light, and that these times were easier then the other.
5.We should not conclude that the straight (or narrow) path is the hard one, and the broad path is the easy one.

Please don't try to force words in my mouth. I've been clear in what I've been saying. I've posted this above list at least four times now. Why don't we consider this list please?

Do you agree with these six items? Do you agree with the quote from A. T. Jones that I posted?

If you wish to agree with me on something, let's try starting here.

Regarding the "default" comment, here is a statement from the SOP:



To be lost, one must do something, namely, resist. This concept is what the poem I cited was dealing with. Are you familiar with this poem? Do you agree with the sentiment of the author?

It seems to me that any saved person should readily understand that a life apart from Christ is more difficult than a life with Him, and that serving God is easier than fighting against Him. Do you disagree with these assertions?

Isn't it more difficult to choose to serve Christ than to choose to serve sin?

I understand now. I think I said previously that the path of sin is much more painful and difficult than the path of God. That's obvious. We agree there.

And now we also agree that the path to holiness requires MORE effort to stay on than the path to corruption. That's also obvious.

I'm fine now.