Yes, I'm questioning the assumption that one must fight God in order to go along with evil. Although this is true in most cases, this is not true in all cases.


You are basing your conclusion in terms of the effort involved. But if there is no effort involved in resisting the Holy Spirit (in the case of those who committed the unpardonable sin), you can't say that for them it's difficult to be lost. OTOH, we would still say it's difficult for them to be lost, because of the pain involved - which is what the MB passage is all about:

Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way. All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments, there are warnings not to go on. God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves. (MB 138)

There are only 2 spirits: God/Jesus or Satan/world/self. We either partake of one or the other.

Following God is not just easier when partaking of God's Spirit; it is inevitable. It is impossible to walk in the flesh while filled with the Holy Spirit.

But the worldly side is "easier" regardless of the spirit one has. Note this:

Corruption requires "no effort." That's the easy way. It cannot get easier than "no effort."

The opposite direction - God's way - requires patient endeavor. It needs more effort than "no effort."

I agree. The MB quote's point regarding the "downward road" is that it is hard to BE there, not that it's hard to GET there. There are many inspired statements that tell us it takes a lot of work to get OUT of there. I haven't yet seen one quote that says that the wide road requires much work to get to.

Arnold,

That sums up what I was trying to say. There's a difference between process and results. The results of the sinful road are hard to bear, but the road itself is the easy slide down. The results of the road to Heaven are easy on the eyes and on the weary traveler, who has been wearied by the difficulties along the way. So basically, we have a choice: weary road for blessed results, or easy road to a rotten end.

In the "Pilgrim's Progress," this journey is well illustrated. The portion dealing with the two children is thought-provoking: the one getting a reward early, and mocking and laughing at the other child while cavorting in his things, while the other child must patiently wait for his reward, for it has not come yet. Those looking on feel that the child with nothing has been treated unfairly. But in the end, his reward is far the better of the two. "Here is the patience of the saints." "He that endureth to the end..." receives the crown of life.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Tom, you seem to be arguing sinners are saved by default if they do not consciously reject their salvation. You also seem to think it is easier to be saved than it is to be lost. Several pages ago I posted a bunch of SOP statements which articulate the opposite in no uncertain terms. I didn't see where you addressed those quotes.

Also, there is the following plain insight:


1. "When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan."

This insight refutes the idea that sinners enter this world in a saved state. Otherwise, there would be no need for rebirth.

2. "But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place."

Again, rebirth is requisite. Why? Because we are born lost.

3. "The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end."

Once again, she makes it clear - our natural state is to be lost. We must experience rebirth or we are serving sin, self, and Satan.

No, I'm not. I'm basing my conclusion based on the words used: "Do not therefore conclude that the downward path is the easy way." I'm going on the usage of the word "easy" to conclude that the downward path is not the easy way.

Similarly, Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden light.



This is overlooking the great deal of effort was involved for them to reach that point. What also seems to be being not taken into consideration is how much God loves those who would be lost. He doesn't allow them to be easily be lost.



What the passage is all about seems to me to be highlighted especially in the last sentence here. "God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves." This is why it's hard to be lost.

This is precisely the error that it's vital that we not fall into. It's not an "easy slide down." It's not just the result of the sinful road that are hard to bear, but the road itself.



This isn't dealing with the results, but the road itself. It says, "All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments ..." "Pains and penalties," "sorrows and disappointments." This is dealing with the way itself. "All along the way" is the journey, not the results. The journey itself is hard, as Scripture says, "The way of the transgressor is hard."

On the other hand, Jesus says:



Jesus reveals the Father to those who wish to learn of Him; He provides "rest unto our souls." His yoke is easy, and His burden light.

I disagree. Why do you think I seem to be arguing this? Please quote something I've said, or present some argument I've made to this effect in our discussion here. I don't think I've said anything like this. I've been arguing that we should not conclude that the downward path is the easy way, that Christ's yoke is easy and His burden light, that God's love has made it hard for the heedless to destroy themselves, and that one must resist the Holy Spirit in order to be lost. Do you disagree with any of these points?

Tom,

I think you misunderstand my point. Let me use a different illustration, which I think better illustrates what I am trying to say.

Imagine a fast-flowing mountain stream, whose edges may be a little calmer, with the exception of a few back-eddies, but whose center is swift and tumbling over sharp rocks. Some human "decoys" laugh and play in it as if they were river otters, while tumbling, sliding, and drifting downstream through the rapids and currents of the ever-broadening river. But those who are either enticed to follow these "decoys" or who are caught in the valley of indecision are alike swept along by the currents, receiving numerous cuts and scrapes as they pass over the sharp rocks and getting pounded at times by the waters which fall more precipitously. They think they are having some fun, in spite of the pains, not realizing the massive waterfall that looms squarely in their path at some distance ahead.

A small group of people are not so easily led to join the partying throng in their downward course. They follow a shaft of light upstream, at times inching their way carefully up over the narrow path whose steps are perilously near the rushing waters, and made slippery in their spray. Those in the midst of the stream at times seductively call to and invite the climbers to join them in their water play. At times they laugh and hurl insults at them instead. Buckets of water and even stones from the riverbed can come hurtling at the climbers, who do not always survive the abuse. Some give up, and slip into the waters. Eventually, they may join their new companions in deriding the climbers. Others glance away from the shaft of light in a moment of temptation, and lose their step. The abuse from the stream knocks some off their feet who had not firmly laid hold on the Rock. A few perish under the volley of stones cast their way, their blood staining the upward trail, at the same time becoming a landmark by which others can better mark the upward path.

Those who reach the top are richly rewarded with a wonderful paradise of comfort and joy in lush surroundings. Their enjoyment of the place is made so much the sweeter for the effort that it took to reach it. A holy joy can be seen on their faces as the Master of that place tells them "Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of thy Lord."

Those in the midst of the stream feel the upward way is too hard. They would rather enjoy the dubious comforts of the easy slide down, in spite of its frequent injury and certain end. They reason away their folly by saying things like "If we took the upward trail, we'd likely fall off near the top anyway, and then have so much the more downward journey to go through. Besides, I don't want to shed my blood on that miserable path." In fact, such reasonings, justifications, and excuses for their course come in almost as many shades of variety as there are travellers in the stream. No one needs to tell them that life is not all joy. They are keenly aware of this, and some of them hasten to the waterfall to get it over with. Yet they all feel that the stream requires less effort than the wearying trail by which only the "fools" would attempt to make passage. "Besides," say they, "who knows if there really is such a paradise at the top as is rumored? Better to have some fun while life lasts."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

By arguing everyone was justified on the cross aren't you arguing everyone is born saved?

Also, the SOP quotes I posted awhile ago make it clear it is easy to be lost and hard to be saved.

PS - I'll repost the quotes.