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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127490
09/09/10 03:57 PM
09/09/10 03:57 PM
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What is the difference between perfectly reproducing the character of Christ and reaching the point of sinlessness Adam enjoyed before his fall? What does it mean to copy the Pattern? Ellen wrote: In COL 69, where she speaks of Christ's longing for a manifestation of Himself in His people, and says that He will come to claim them as His own when His character is perfectly reproduced in His people, I believe this is a corporate work. I think this started in the 1888 era. W. W. Prescott spoke in one of the GC sessions, I think 1895, about why the work wasn't going forward (in terms of Christ's coming being prepared), and said that God didn't want the body strewn in parts, but was waiting for the whole body to move together. Of course, there will never be a time when everybody (i.e. every SDA) is on board, but one can think in terms of critical mass, and, apparently, that wasn't reached. Well, we know Christ didn't come, and 1SM 234,5 speaks to the reason being that the message which was sent was resisted/rejected by leadership. I think a similar thing will happen again, but how exactly this will happen is anybody's guess. The SOP speaks of God's taking action that nobody expects to finish the work.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127492
09/09/10 04:56 PM
09/09/10 04:56 PM
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I am answering this post without having yet read the the rest of this thread by saying that all those alive for translation will have accepted the Sabbath as in 7th day, however, I also believe people will be resurrected from the grave who never even knew about Chr5ist, but lived up to what they did know. Thomas, I'm having a hard time nailing down what you believe as it relates to saving truth like the seventh-day Sabbath. Do you believe people will be translated alive when Jesus arrives who have never kept the seven-day Sabbath?
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127498
09/09/10 07:10 PM
09/09/10 07:10 PM
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Noting what Tom said about official SDA positions, it isnt as clear as you are suggesting what the official position is. Are you familiar with what Ellen White wrote about it in the Great Controversy? If so, do you agree with her? I believe her view represents the official SDA position. Here is what she wrote about it: Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {GC 588.1}
The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honor the Sunday. The lack of divine authority will be supplied by oppressive enactments. Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected. In the soon-coming conflict we shall see exemplified the prophet's words: "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17. {GC 592.3}
Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death. On the other hand, the law of God enjoining the Creator's rest day demands obedience and threatens wrath against all who transgress its precepts. {GC 604.2}
With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God's law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast; he accepts the sign of allegiance to the power which he chooses to obey instead of God. The warning from heaven is: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation." Revelation 14:9, 10. {GC 604.3}
But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. There are many who have never had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before them in its true light. He who reads every heart and tries every motive will leave none who desire a knowledge of the truth, to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. The decree is not to be urged upon the people blindly. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. {GC 605.1}
The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God. {GC 605.2}
Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before. {GC 605.3} Do you agree with this interpretation of prophecy? And, do you agree it reflects the official SDA position? Some of these things are happening right now, but not exactly as Ellen wrote. For instance: " Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected." This reaction is caused by fear of Islam and xenophobia and could if proving strong enough end with a law for enforcing christianity as state religion. "Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God" Today the trend is to go against the 9th commandment, through generalizations covering huge groups of people in the taint of the crimes of a few. "Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before. {GC 605.3}" Religious intolerance surely abound these days. However, not yet with regard to Sunday observance. Will Ellen be proven right? He who lives long enough will surely find out, dont you think?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Tom]
#127499
09/09/10 07:16 PM
09/09/10 07:16 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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What is the difference between perfectly reproducing the character of Christ and reaching the point of sinlessness Adam enjoyed before his fall? What does it mean to copy the Pattern? Ellen wrote: [quotes omitted by Tom]. In COL 69, where she speaks of Christ's longing for a manifestation of Himself in His people, and says that He will come to claim them as His own when His character is perfectly reproduced in His people, I believe this is a corporate work. I think this started in the 1888 era. W. W. Prescott spoke in one of the GC sessions, I think 1895, about why the work wasn't going forward (in terms of Christ's coming being prepared), and said that God didn't want the body strewn in parts, but was waiting for the whole body to move together. Of course, there will never be a time when everybody (i.e. every SDA) is on board, but one can think in terms of critical mass, and, apparently, that wasn't reached. Well, we know Christ didn't come, and 1SM 234,5 speaks to the reason being that the message which was sent was resisted/rejected by leadership. I think a similar thing will happen again, but how exactly this will happen is anybody's guess. The SOP speaks of God's taking action that nobody expects to finish the work. Do you believe individual people are incapable of perfectly reproducing the character of Christ? If so, in what way does it differ from the experience described in the SOP quotes I posted above?
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127500
09/09/10 07:26 PM
09/09/10 07:26 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Noting what Tom said about official SDA positions, it isnt as clear as you are suggesting what the official position is. Are you familiar with what Ellen White wrote about it in the Great Controversy? If so, do you agree with her? I believe her view represents the official SDA position. Here is what she wrote about it: Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {GC 588.1}
The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honor the Sunday. The lack of divine authority will be supplied by oppressive enactments. Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected. In the soon-coming conflict we shall see exemplified the prophet's words: "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17. {GC 592.3}
Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death. On the other hand, the law of God enjoining the Creator's rest day demands obedience and threatens wrath against all who transgress its precepts. {GC 604.2}
With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God's law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast; he accepts the sign of allegiance to the power which he chooses to obey instead of God. The warning from heaven is: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation." Revelation 14:9, 10. {GC 604.3}
But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. There are many who have never had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before them in its true light. He who reads every heart and tries every motive will leave none who desire a knowledge of the truth, to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. The decree is not to be urged upon the people blindly. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. {GC 605.1}
The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God. {GC 605.2}
Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before. {GC 605.3} Do you agree with this interpretation of prophecy? And, do you agree it reflects the official SDA position? Some of these things are happening right now, but not exactly as Ellen wrote. For instance: " Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected." This reaction is caused by fear of Islam and xenophobia and could if proving strong enough end with a law for enforcing christianity as state religion. "Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God" Today the trend is to go against the 9th commandment, through generalizations covering huge groups of people in the taint of the crimes of a few. "Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before. {GC 605.3}" Religious intolerance surely abound these days. However, not yet with regard to Sunday observance. Will Ellen be proven right? He who lives long enough will surely find out, dont you think? Thomas, I don't see where you actually answered my questions. I'll clarify what I had in mind. Do you agree the passages above reflect the official SDA position? And, do you believe when Jesus arrives that everyone alive will be divided between those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath and those who keep the first-day Sabbath, and that those who keep the first-day Sabbath will be destroyed rather than translated alive and taken to heaven?
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127504
09/10/10 12:31 AM
09/10/10 12:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:In COL 69, where she speaks of Christ's longing for a manifestation of Himself in His people, and says that He will come to claim them as His own when His character is perfectly reproduced in His people, I believe this is a corporate work.
I think this started in the 1888 era. W. W. Prescott spoke in one of the GC sessions, I think 1895, about why the work wasn't going forward (in terms of Christ's coming being prepared), and said that God didn't want the body strewn in parts, but was waiting for the whole body to move together. Of course, there will never be a time when everybody (i.e. every SDA) is on board, but one can think in terms of critical mass, and, apparently, that wasn't reached. Well, we know Christ didn't come, and 1SM 234,5 speaks to the reason being that the message which was sent was resisted/rejected by leadership.
I think a similar thing will happen again, but how exactly this will happen is anybody's guess. The SOP speaks of God's taking action that nobody expects to finish the work.
M:Do you believe individual people are incapable of perfectly reproducing the character of Christ? I don't think it's something an individual does, but something the body of Christ does. I don't think any given single person can do this. If so, in what way does it differ from the experience described in the SOP quotes I posted above? It's a corporate work, as opposed to an individual one.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127505
09/10/10 01:30 AM
09/10/10 01:30 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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M: Do you agree the passages above reflect the official SDA position? And, do you believe when Jesus arrives that everyone alive will be divided between those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath and those who keep the first-day Sabbath, and that those who keep the first-day Sabbath will be destroyed rather than translated alive and taken to heaven?
V: If the SDA church had an official position, it would be a 29th FB. I think the end time scenario you paint is a fair fit for 1900 America and Europe. Christians may well be fighting each other over the Sabbath day. How you will get Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Atheists and Animists to get fired up around Sabbath or Sunday is a mystery. Still don't know what your answer is. It sounds like, no, you do not agree with it. Regarding the official SDA position and the passages posted above, please consider the following: 18. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.) Do you think it is accurate to say the SOP reflects the official position? Or, do you suspect the SDA church has no official position?
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127506
09/10/10 01:43 AM
09/10/10 01:43 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Tom, the following inspired insights make it clear that every believer will perfectly reproduce the character of Christ. You seem to be saying no one individual is capable of doing such a thing.
--------------------------
You cannot equal the copy; but you can resemble it and, according to your ability, do likewise. {2T 169.4}
We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. {2T 549.1}
We are to look at His life, study His character, and copy the pattern. What Christ was in His perfect humanity, we must be; for we must form characters for eternity. {TM 173.2}
Some souls respond to the drawing of Christ, and become learners in his school. They keep their eye fixed upon the Pattern, and seek to reproduce the characteristics of Christ in their practical life; for whoever believes in Christ must do the works of Christ. The Lord has been presented before them as one who exercises loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth, and these are the fruits that are borne by the genuine Christian. The characteristics of Christ are to be manifested by every true believer; for those who are sanctified through the truth, are as bright, shining lights, giving light to all that are in the house. Good works will be revealed in every true believer. The Lord can accept of nothing short of perfection of character, wholeness to God. Any half-hearted service will testify before the heavenly intelligences that you have failed to copy the Pattern. {YI, October 13, 1892 par. 3}
The aim of God's Word is to inspire hope, to lead us to fasten our hands to this Ladder and climb step by step heavenward, with ever-increasing vigor. It is the key to the sense in which we partake of the nature of God. We attain a likeness of character to God by the imparting of His own grace. In the measure of our limited powers we can be holy as He is holy and can reproduce the truth and love which exist in Him who is at the top of the ladder. As wax takes the counterpart of the seal, so the soul receives and retains the moral image of God. We become filled and transfigured by His brightness, as the cloud--dark in itself--when filled with the light is turned to stainless whiteness. {19MR 347.1}
"Verily, verily, I say unto you," Christ continued, "He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also." The Saviour was deeply anxious for His disciples to understand for what purpose His divinity was united to humanity. He came to the world to display the glory of God, that man might be uplifted by its restoring power. God was manifested in Him that He might be manifested in them. Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}
Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127507
09/10/10 05:26 AM
09/10/10 05:26 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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M: Do you agree the passages above reflect the official SDA position? And, do you believe when Jesus arrives that everyone alive will be divided between those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath and those who keep the first-day Sabbath, and that those who keep the first-day Sabbath will be destroyed rather than translated alive and taken to heaven?
V: If the SDA church had an official position, it would be a 29th FB. I think the end time scenario you paint is a fair fit for 1900 America and Europe. Christians may well be fighting each other over the Sabbath day. How you will get Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Atheists and Animists to get fired up around Sabbath or Sunday is a mystery. Still don't know what your answer is. It sounds like, no, you do not agree with it. Regarding the official SDA position and the passages posted above, please consider the following: 18. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.) Do you think it is accurate to say the SOP reflects the official position? Or, do you suspect the SDA church has no official position? Why does the church need a FB about Jesus after Ellen wrote the Desire of Ages?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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