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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Colin] #127351
09/04/10 05:13 AM
09/04/10 05:13 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Knowing we are right with God is based on believing Jesus satisfied our sin debt of death on the cross AND believing the fruits of the Spirit we experience while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are "righteousness and true holiness"


It seems to me that the following explains how we can know we are right with God:

Quote:
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Colin] #127358
09/04/10 02:41 PM
09/04/10 02:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Colin
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Colin, still not sure of something. Are believers, who have "ceased from sin", condemned because they possess sinful flesh nature?

It doesn't matter whether sinning or not, Mike, though knowing oneself free from condemnation requires knowledge of the gospel and faith in Jesus, too.

"Freedom in Christ", this lesson's title, is really about what grace has done - "what God hath wrought" (...as Ellen White would say): it is true, strictly speaking, regardless of what sinners do with Christ, though of course not totally separable from our response to Christ. wink

Jesus freed the world from the condemnation of sinful nature by putting that sinful nature eternally to death (the very death it was condemned to) in his person, on the cross - it was his own, assumed human nature. Knowing Jesus by grace through faith and hearing the gospel brings the saint knowledge & experience of being free from this condemnation, by being born from above and spiritually putting the old man of sin to death, each day and moment of living faith.

Forgiveness of guilt is a separate, vital experience - another legal point altogether, following confession of sin, etc.

Just so, Jesus could not have been "born of a woman, born under the law" if "under the law" means suffering guilt, as the lesson suggests: "under the law" has to mean born under the sinful nature's natural condemnation, freeable only by Jesus redeeming the world from that condemnation, etc.

To make it clear (enough?), sinful nature's condemnation was ended by Jesus at the cross, by tasting eternal death for every man as the Lamb of God. (Hence Rom 8:1c KJV shouldn't be there, as it fits only in Rom 8:4.) We know of that freedom as we die daily to sin, to live under grace, born from above each day (Rom 8:4, among other texts).

Sinful nature cannot (of course) go to heaven due to its sinfulness, so we receive immortality before we go to heaven; in the same sense Jesus at the beginning of salvation redeems us from our sinful nature. We experience that redemption from sinfulness when first actually converted, and receiving immortality is the end result for all, especially those still living to see Jesus come again, of being redeemed from sinful human nature. Again, it was executed eternally for all in Jesus' personal death, he having taken sinful flesh as his own.

Colin, is it more accurate to say Jesus made freedom from sinful flesh nature's condemnation available on the cross to penitent sinners?

Also, when people experience the miracle of rebirth does their sinful flesh nature cease tempting them from within to be unlike Jesus?

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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Mountain Man] #127369
09/04/10 08:25 PM
09/04/10 08:25 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Colin, is it more accurate to say Jesus made freedom from sinful flesh nature's condemnation available on the cross to penitent sinners?


This can't be right, because it would imply that those who lived before the cross could not have freedom from sinful flesh, which is obviously not true (e.g. Elijah, Enoch).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Tom] #127373
09/05/10 04:09 AM
09/05/10 04:09 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The cross has been efficacious since the day God implemented the plan of salvation. See Rev 13:8.

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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Mountain Man] #127380
09/05/10 03:34 PM
09/05/10 03:34 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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You asked if it wouldn't be more accurate to say that Jesus made freedom from sinful flesh nature's condemnation available on the cross to penitent sinners. But this freedom was available before the cross. So it was available before then.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Tom] #127394
09/05/10 06:58 PM
09/05/10 06:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, what do you think Colin would say? My question was addressed to him. He wrote, "Jesus freed the world from the condemnation of sinful nature by putting that sinful nature eternally to death (the very death it was condemned to) in his person, on the cross - it was his own, assumed human nature."

He said "world" whereas I limited it to "penitent sinners". Is that more accurate? Or, do you believe Jesus eternally put to death sinful nature and it's condemnation on the cross and thereby set the world free?

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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Mountain Man] #127404
09/05/10 11:49 PM
09/05/10 11:49 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'll let Colin speak for himself. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't put things in these terms. I think the big issues involve God's character. Jesus revealed the truth about God, and we are saved as we open our hearts to this truth.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Mountain Man] #127409
09/06/10 11:09 AM
09/06/10 11:09 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, what do you think Colin would say? My question was addressed to him. He wrote, "Jesus freed the world from the condemnation of sinful nature by putting that sinful nature eternally to death (the very death it was condemned to) in his person, on the cross - it was his own, assumed human nature."

He said "world" whereas I limited it to "penitent sinners". Is that more accurate? Or, do you believe Jesus eternally put to death sinful nature and it's condemnation on the cross and thereby set the world free?

Yes, I can answer that, Mike. grin

Penitent sinners alone experience the spiritual reality of death to sin - via the accomplishment by Jesus of putting the old man to death forever on the tree...Dying daily is the 'negative', legal, salvation requirement for sinners our Saviour gives by his death; forgiveness is the other 'negative' accomplishment legally obtained by Jesus' death "for all men" (Heb 2:9), Tom. 'Positive' legal requirements of salvation start with the new birth of justification by faith...

For the world..., Mike: it is the truth of the Second Adam and the "in Christ" motif. The world was "in Christ" by grace since he took as his own its sinful nature, "taking humanity into himself" - as Sister White also says somewhere. What he did thus counts for them, but they must actually be penitent so that they may experience it personally. Christ is first the world's Saviour, then every sinner's personal Saviour.

The world was set free by Jesus' action as its Saviour: this is what grace has done for the world! It is legal fact: "the Saviour of the world" (the Samaritans' confession of faith in Jesus in John 4) saved the world from the condemnation of its sinful nature. He did this saving by meting out that condemnation - eternal death - on the sinful nature he took for his own and thus shared with the world, representing all humanity in himself, the Second Adam, in his death as the Lamb of God.

A fuller Bible study can show all this, but the point is that "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24) the world's Saviour perfected in his own life & person, i.e. achieved and obtained for all men, complete freedom from the condemnation of sinful flesh. The world legally has this in its Saviour, but can't possess and experience it without individual faith of dying daily.

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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Tom] #127410
09/06/10 11:37 AM
09/06/10 11:37 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I'll let Colin speak for himself. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't put things in these terms. I think the big issues involve God's character. Jesus revealed the truth about God, and we are saved as we open our hearts to this truth.

Opening our hearts is selfish, for our hearts are sinful, Tom.

Unless we give our corrupted hearts to Jesus so he can give us new hearts, your concise summary is flawed and at best the unconverted man of Romans 7. Where & when do you include dying to self & sin?

Dying daily is a common phrase, but denying self in our experience of faith (Lk 9:23) is possible only because Jesus personally did so to the full extent of putting the old man to death forever in his own person. "Freedom in Christ" is realised, i.e. known, only in the saints' spiritual lives of conversion, but it is true first in Christ as he died to sin for us all.

True justification by faith is being born from above, but unless Jesus died to sin as well as for sin on his cross Rom 8:4 can't happen in us. Dying to self is the first step in salvation for us, as it was for Jesus on earth, faithful till death, as he qualified as Saviour of the world.

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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST [Re: Colin] #127412
09/06/10 03:42 PM
09/06/10 03:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Colin, in what way do impenitent people benefit from what Jesus accomplished through His life and death? I realize it bought them probation, but what else?

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