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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127530
09/11/10 01:17 AM
09/11/10 01:17 AM
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M: Tom, isn't this another way of saying Jesus bought them probation? In what way do you think probation (or the provisions you cited) benefits the impenitent (people who refuse to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior)?
T: In the way she pointed out; it gives them physical life. Our physical life, and even the ability we have to refuse Christ, is the purchase of His blood. This is what she's saying. In what way does it benefit them? Jesus and Peter had this to say: Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. 2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. Also, do you believe Jesus justified everyone on the cross? Or, do you believe He merely made it available and possible?
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127535
09/11/10 03:19 AM
09/11/10 03:19 AM
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M: Tom, isn't this another way of saying Jesus bought them probation? In what way do you think probation (or the provisions you cited) benefits the impenitent (people who refuse to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior)?
T: In the way she pointed out; it gives them physical life. Our physical life, and even the ability we have to refuse Christ, is the purchase of His blood. This is what she's saying.
M:In what way does it benefit them? In the way she pointed out; it gives them physical life. Our physical life, and even the ability we have to refuse Christ, is the purchase of His blood. This is what she's saying. Also, do you believe Jesus justified everyone on the cross? Or, do you believe He merely made it available and possible? It would depend upon what you meant by this. W. W. Prescott spoke in these terms (i.e., everyone being justified) in the 1895 GCB. Many people get confused by this language, however, so I prefer to stick with how EGW put things, which I think is clear. For example: By His wonderful work of giving His life, He(Christ) restored the whole race of men to favor with God.(1SM 343)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Tom]
#127537
09/11/10 04:54 AM
09/11/10 04:54 AM
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T:What's the undiluted wrath of God?
C:Full, eternal separation from God, also known as the second death judgement on sin and sinners. So Christ experienced full, eternal separation from God, or the second death judgment on sin an sinners. What does this mean? That is, what happened to Christ? Christ "tasted death", so he experienced spiritual separation from God: withdrawal of the Holy Spirit, bringing deepest sorrow, and no personal hope of resurrection after impending death. That's the spiritual, mental and personal equivalent of the second death of hell fire on judgement day. He drained the cup of judgement given him by his Father, in Gethsemane. He thus fulfilled the Messianic prophecy of Ps 22, which he quoted, too, of course. God judges sin and the sinner, contrary to him as these are, at the appointed time, and grace gives sinners a Saviour and Substitute for this judgement, dying their death as them, having taken them into himself by taking their sinful, condemned nature as his own....obvious to relate to you.  The guilt we suffer after sinning and before confessing is a faint, merciful hint of that wrath of God. What causes the guilt we suffer? God's judgement on sin in our life experience: and mercy reducing the weight of guilt we suffer. You may differ with the first line, there, on the wrath of God, I think. I don't differ with what you said. I might differ with what you mean, but I'm not sure, as I'm not sure what you think God did to Christ, or what God will do to the wicked. [/quote] To sin God is a consuming fire, and what I mean is that God judges sin, as described. God does act against sin: his justice demands the death of the sinner, from Lucifer on down, and that's what God's will for the Suffering Servant was. Amen.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Rosangela]
#127538
09/11/10 05:23 AM
09/11/10 05:23 AM
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The assumed, i.e. taken, sinful humanity of Christ was condemned, but the human character of Christ was righteous by faith, so his death was our condemnation suffered in his body and our justification rooted in his merits as the Lamb of God (Rom 4:25). Colin, Christ’s human nature can’t be separated from Himself - He was the God-man. So, if His human nature was condemned, He was condemned. But if He had to die because of His own condemnation, He couldn’t die because of our condemnation. Thank you for clarifying your understanding. Yet, you missed the part about his merits & human character.... First "God sent his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh", but also in his character was no sin, he developing in human nature merits of the world's salvation. "Likeness" there also means he was God, too, not that he took sinful human nature without sin..., which is plainly illogical. Also, since he is by nature divine, he is not by nature human. Thus able to remain above the eternal death due human nature. Christ died humanity's condemnation as mankind - died as us, see 2 Cor 15:14. His character of righteousness preserved him above the lack of resurrection suffered by the wicked on that day. Rom 4:25 says that was raised up on the tree, cursed of God for us - "because of our offences"...check Strong's for the meanings available of that verse, and resurrected "because of our justification". Christ suffered our condemnation because by faith and righteousness he was also our Saviour from our nature's condemnation and guilt.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Tom]
#127540
09/11/10 03:07 PM
09/11/10 03:07 PM
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M: Tom, isn't this another way of saying Jesus bought them probation? In what way do you think probation (or the provisions you cited) benefits the impenitent (people who refuse to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior)?
T: In the way she pointed out; it gives them physical life. Our physical life, and even the ability we have to refuse Christ, is the purchase of His blood. This is what she's saying.
M:In what way does it benefit them? Jesus and Peter had this to say:
Matthew
18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mark
14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
T: In the way she pointed out; it gives them physical life. Our physical life, and even the ability we have to refuse Christ, is the purchase of His blood. This is what she's saying. I couldn't help noticing you didn't respond to what Jesus and Peter said about it. Based on what they said, it sounds like probation (temporary sustenance) isn't a blessing for certain people. M: Also, do you believe Jesus justified everyone on the cross? Or, do you believe He merely made it available and possible?
T: It would depend upon what you meant by this. W. W. Prescott spoke in these terms (i.e., everyone being justified) in the 1895 GCB. Many people get confused by this language, however, so I prefer to stick with how EGW put things, which I think is clear. For example: "By His wonderful work of giving His life, He(Christ) restored the whole race of men to favor with God.(1SM 343) By "restored the whole race of men to favor with God" do you think she is saying Jesus justified everyone on the cross? By "justified" I mean: "To be justified means to be pardoned. To those whom God justifies He imputes Christ's righteousness, for the Saviour has taken away our sin. We stand before the throne of God justified and sanctified. We are emptied of self, and, through the sanctification of the truth, Christ abides in our hearts." {TDG 358.4}
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127541
09/11/10 03:27 PM
09/11/10 03:27 PM
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I couldn't help noticing you didn't respond to what Jesus and Peter said about it. Based on what they said, it sounds like probation (temporary sustenance) isn't a blessing for certain people. You cited texts dealing with another subject. For Scriptures dealing with the same subject, I suggest Romans 5:18, 2 Cor. 5:14,15,19;John 2:2;Isa. 44:22;1 John 4:14. The question you've asked is how the sacrifice of Christ benefits those who choose not to be saved. The answer is that it gives them physical life. So unless you think having physical life is of no value, there you have it. Everything that every person has, whether they choose to be saved or not, they owe to Christ; it is the purchase of His blood. This is what DA 660 says, right? By "restored the whole race of men to favor with God" do you think she is saying Jesus justified everyone on the cross? It would depend upon what you meant by this. W. W. Prescott spoke in these terms (i.e., everyone being justified) in the 1895 GCB. Many people get confused by this language, however, so I prefer to stick with how EGW put things. By "justified" I mean:
"To be justified means to be pardoned. To those whom God justifies He imputes Christ's righteousness, for the Saviour has taken away our sin. We stand before the throne of God justified and sanctified. We are emptied of self, and, through the sanctification of the truth, Christ abides in our hearts." {TDG 358.4} This is a definition for "justification." Specifically, this is dealing with justification by faith. Prescoss dealt with four meanings of justification in his 1895 sermon. There's no reason to limit the meaning of this word to just one meaning, but if you choose to do so, then I'd again stick to other statements of the SOP, which I've cited, such as 1SM 343 and DA 660, which I think are clear as they stand (that is, there's no need to take her plain language and try to explain it with theological language).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127565
09/13/10 03:19 AM
09/13/10 03:19 AM
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Mike, of course Jesus didn't pardon everyone at Calvary.  He is, however, everyone's Saviour and their salvivic righteousness, and that's legally effective by grace: Amen!! Therefore, by grace and law, the world is justified by grace in the person of its Saviour. There after & there by anyone may believe in Jesus and experience pardon and regeneration of justification by faith. Justification by faith is an experience, not purely forensic: forgetting the subjective element of justification is the biggest mistake any Christian can make in understanding the power of the gospel. Adventists are foremost in neglecting this truth - that justification by faith is indeed subjective, too, which we hold in our literature but are shy to proclaim in the face of Evangelical ignorance and confusion on the matter. The Saviour must be given his rights of grace, as "Saviour of the world".
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Re: Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
[Re: Colin]
#127570
09/13/10 05:23 PM
09/13/10 05:23 PM
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Brazil
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Also, since he is by nature divine, he is not by nature human. Thus able to remain above the eternal death due human nature. Look, this doesn't work. He is by nature divine and He is by nature human - He has both natures. Christ died humanity's condemnation as mankind Our human nature is condemned because it is depraved. So your contention is that Christ's human nature was depraved?
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