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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127949
10/01/10 10:23 PM
10/01/10 10:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: You seem to be saying the paragraph I posted, when taken in context, means evil angels, not holy angels, will personally cause the devastation portrayed by the seven last plagues. You also seem to be saying holy angels have never personally caused death or destruction. Did I misunderstand you?
T: I understand that the previous paragraph explains that the same principles will be used in the future destruction as was used in the destruction of Jerusalem. Isn't that clear? For example:
1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
After saying this she then says it will be like the destruction of Jerusalem. When she was discussing the destruction Jerusalem, she said was like what the future will be like.
Do I have your permission, then, to conclude you agree with my assessment of your view? If your assessment is that I don't believe that holy angels have personally caused death or destruction, or that they will, yes, I agree with that. I also believe that when inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits, and that this is true as a general principle. Iow, GC 36 is not describing how God sometimes works, but how God works; God always looks like Jesus Christ. How do evil angels exercise the "same destructive power" as holy angels? Death and destruction come from Satan. Satan is the author of sin and all its results. DA 471. God, and the holy angels, exercise this destructive power by permitting Satan to destroy and devastate. T:Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?
M:So, yes, you believe evil angel will personally cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues when holy angels permit it. This seems non-responsive. I'll try again: Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does? Which means, then, you believe holy angels are praising God (see passage below) for the death and destruction evil angels are causing.
Revelation is a symbolic book. I think that Rev. 16 is expresses the desire on the part of God's followers for justice. Do you think the evil angels are willing to work within the limits established and enforced by God? As opposed to what? Isn't it rather counterproductive? Sure, fighting against God is counterproductive. But they're evil; that's what they do. What is the cause and effect relationship between receiving and enforcing the mark of the beast and the events portrayed by the plagues? It's similar to the destruction of Jerusalem. That is, how do their sins trigger them? For example, do you think worshiping on Sunday causes grievous sores, sea creatures to die, fresh water to become blood, the sun to scorch people with fire, and large hailstones to fall from the sky? Re-quoting the passage from GC 614: When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. This says, "Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble." I believe this covers what your questioning. How do you envision wicked men and angels preventing God from causing them to have life? What? Will they build a barrier around themselves which God cannot penetrate? Huh? I think the passage from GC 614 explains what happens.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127950
10/01/10 10:27 PM
10/01/10 10:27 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:In the view you say you agree with, *Satan* is the one responsible for the death and destruction. But in *your* view, God is responsible.
So you don't really agree with what she said. The great deceiver can't be hiding his own work by accusing God if God is really the one responsible for the death and destruction.
M:God permits evil angels to work within the limits He establishes and enforces. They are not free to wreak havoc as they see fit. God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He has established. Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127951
10/01/10 10:28 PM
10/01/10 10:28 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, you wrote - "Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed."
With this in mind, please respond to the following post. I've highlighted in red areas I think reflect your view. No, the areas in red to not reflect my view. What I've written reflects my view. You may quote the things I've written as expressions of my view.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#127959
10/02/10 04:09 PM
10/02/10 04:09 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Tom, you wrote - "Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed." With this in mind, please respond to the following post. I've highlighted in red areas I think reflect your view.
T: No, the areas in red to not reflect my view. What I've written reflects my view. You may quote the things I've written as expressions of my view. Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#127960
10/02/10 04:16 PM
10/02/10 04:16 PM
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SDA
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T: In the view you say you agree with, *Satan* is the one responsible for the death and destruction. But in *your* view, God is responsible. So you don't really agree with what she said. The great deceiver can't be hiding his own work by accusing God if God is really the one responsible for the death and destruction.
M: God permits evil angels to work within the limits He establishes and enforces. They are not free to wreak havoc as they see fit. God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He has established.
T: Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God. Do you see a difference between God causing death and destruction and God permitting evil angels to do it within the limits He establishes and enforces? Also, do you agree God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He established?
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127965
10/02/10 05:32 PM
10/02/10 05:32 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127967
10/02/10 06:13 PM
10/02/10 06:13 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: You seem to be saying the paragraph I posted, when taken in context, means evil angels, not holy angels, will personally cause the devastation portrayed by the seven last plagues. You also seem to be saying holy angels have never personally caused death or destruction. Did I misunderstand you?
T: I understand that the previous paragraph explains that the same principles will be used in the future destruction as was used in the destruction of Jerusalem. Isn't that clear? For example:
1.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
2.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
3.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
4.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
After saying this she then says it will be like the destruction of Jerusalem. When she was discussing the destruction Jerusalem, she said was like what the future will be like.
M: Do I have your permission, then, to conclude you agree with my assessment of your view?
T: If your assessment is that I don't believe that holy angels have personally caused death or destruction, or that they will, yes, I agree with that. I also believe that when inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits, and that this is true as a general principle. Iow, GC 36 is not describing how God sometimes works, but how God works; God always looks like Jesus Christ. Thank you for answering my question. Revelation 15 and 16, therefore, where it says holy angels pour out the plagues, do you take it to mean holy angels permit evil angels to do it? EGW: The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.
M: How do evil angels exercise the "same destructive power" as holy angels? Do they withdraw their protection and permit some other evil entity to cause death and destruction?
T: Death and destruction come from Satan. Satan is the author of sin and all its results. DA 471. God, and the holy angels, exercise this destructive power by permitting Satan to destroy and devastate. I’m not sure how your response answers my question. How do holy and evil angels exercise the “same destructive power”? Are you saying they exercise the “same destructive power” in the sense holy angels permit evil angels to cause death and destruction? M: Finally, she wrote - "There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." Is Ellen saying evil angels will cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?
T: Yes, and she explains how in the previous paragraph. She made comparisons, as clear as possible, that the destruction in the future would be *like* the destruction of Jerusalem. She enunciated the same principles, and she said it was like Jerusalem, and when she wrote of Jerusalem, she explained that that was like what the future would be.
Also, something else to bear in mind, is that God will act like Jesus Christ acted while here with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. This is one of the problems I see with your point of view. It would have God acting contrary to what Jesus Christ taught and revealed.
Another problem is that it doesn't seem to present sin as having consequences (that aren't arbitrarily imposed). For example: “God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764) Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does?
M: So, yes, you believe evil angel will personally cause the destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues when holy angels permit it. . . [truncated by Tom] . . .
T: This seems non-responsive. I'll try again: Wouldn't separating oneself from the fountain of life result in death? And isn't this something the sinner himself does? I addressed your points in reverse order. Here’s how I addressed this point: M: How do you envision wicked men and angels preventing God from causing them to have life? Will they build a barrier around themselves which God cannot penetrate?
T: What? Huh? I think the passage from GC 614 explains what happens. I included your response. Please explain how you envision evil men and angels separating themselves from the fountain of life. Since it is God causing them to live, what will they do to prevent God from causing to them live? M: . . . [truncated by Tom] . . . Which means, then, you believe holy angels are praising God (see passage below [deleted by Tom]) for the death and destruction evil angels are causing.
T: Revelation is a symbolic book. I think that Rev. 16 is expresses the desire on the part of God's followers for justice. Do you believe evil angels do evil things that count as God’s justice? M: Do you think the evil angels are willing to work within the limits established and enforced by God?
T: As opposed to what? As opposed to doing something entirely different than what God is willing to permit them to do. Are they at liberty to do more or less than what God is willing to allow? M: Isn't it rather counterproductive?
T: Sure, fighting against God is counterproductive. But they're evil; that's what they do. Are evil angels fighting against God when they cause the death and destruction God commanded? See comments above regarding the following insight – “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” T: Another problem is that it doesn't seem to present sin as having consequences (that aren't arbitrarily imposed).
M: What is the cause and effect relationship between receiving and enforcing the mark of the beast and the events portrayed by the plagues? That is, how do their sins trigger them? For example, do you think worshiping on Sunday causes grievous sores, sea creatures to die, fresh water to become blood, the sun to scorch people with fire, and large hailstones to fall from the sky?
T: Re-quoting the passage from GC 614: “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. “ This says, "Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble." I believe this covers what your questioning. Do you believe legislating and enforcing Sundays laws will trigger the natural disasters portrayed by the seven last plagues? If so, please explain how. If not, do you believe it will force God to reluctantly allow evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to cause the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues? If so, how is this not “arbitrarily imposed” consequences (to use your words)?
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: vastergotland]
#127968
10/02/10 06:21 PM
10/02/10 06:21 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Amen!!!!!! Thank you for sharing it. That was wonderful. That's my King, too! Although I much prefer this version of it: That's My King
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127990
10/04/10 10:59 PM
10/04/10 10:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post):
"They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them." Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#127991
10/04/10 11:02 PM
10/04/10 11:02 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T: In the view you say you agree with, *Satan* is the one responsible for the death and destruction. But in *your* view, God is responsible. So you don't really agree with what she said. The great deceiver can't be hiding his own work by accusing God if God is really the one responsible for the death and destruction.
M: God permits evil angels to work within the limits He establishes and enforces. They are not free to wreak havoc as they see fit. God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He has established.
T: Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God.
M:Do you see a difference between God causing death and destruction and God permitting evil angels to do it within the limits He establishes and enforces? Also, do you agree God is responsible for ensuring evil angels do not exceed the limits He established? Of course, regarding these two questions, but I'm not dealing with this. What I'm dealing with is your idea that God is responsible for the death and destruction itself. Again: Who's responsible for the destruction that occurs? This is where the difference is. She says it's Satan. You say it's God. Do you disagree that it's your view that God is responsible for the destruction which occurred in the destruction of Jerusalem? If you disagree, I'll explain why I've made the assertion that it is your view that God is responsible for the destruction. If you don't disagree, then I won't need to explain anything.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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