|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,632
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128388
10/26/10 04:58 PM
10/26/10 04:58 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
It's not simply that God knows the future like history, like it's already played out, but MM says that it HAS played out. ...I also believe eternity has already played out and God alone knows "the end from the beginning".(emphasis mine) This is the real crux of the problem. It's not simply that God knows the future as if it's played out, but *it's already played out*. That makes it completely settled. Are you saying God's experience in time makes the future settled? If so, how and why? And, does it mean we are not truly free to choose as we please? Does it somehow rob us our ability and freedom to choose as we please?
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: kland]
#128390
10/26/10 08:09 PM
10/26/10 08:09 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
|
|
What if you are wrong? What if time unfolds for us as if God does not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously?
Do you mean "does exist"? Why do you think God's experience in time effects, alters, changes our experience in time? Why do you think it's impossible for God to exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously without it effecting, altering, changing how we experience time? But good point, something I hadn't thought of. Do you suggest a third option on the list? Here is what I here you saying, correct me if I'm wrong because I am basing my comments on this understanding: - God knows the future like history, like it's already played out.
- We know the future as sequential, as with the ability to make choices in how it's played out.
- God knows/experiences time in a certain way, we experience time in a certain way, and we both are under an illusion from reality?
Now, would it be worth considering that only one of those is what the future really is like? That is, either: the future really is like history and has already played out and we are under the illusion that we can make choices, or the future really is sequential and we can make choices affecting it while God is under the illusion that it has already played out. or the future really is undefinable and both God and us are each under an illusion from whatever this undefinable concept, "future" is.
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: kland]
#128394
10/26/10 10:27 PM
10/26/10 10:27 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Kland, I believe God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously and that it has zero effect on how we experience time. We are just as free to choose as we please as if God does not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously. In other words, His existence in the past, present, and future does not effect, alter, change our experience in time. It doesn't effect, alter, change time in any way whatsoever. Time unfolds sequentially just as it always does.
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128395
10/26/10 10:32 PM
10/26/10 10:32 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
T:1.If God knows the future like history, then
2.The future is like history, meaning its single-threaded, and
3.Nothing we can do will impact the future.
The last item means we do not have free will in the libertarian sense. Your question was asked from the compatibilistic standpoint, which assumes a less strict definition of "free will." For those who accept this less strict definition, there isn't a problem, regarding the question of "free will."
However, other questions would remain, such as the problem of evil. E.g., Why would God create a being (Lucifer) He was certain would sin when He could just as well have created a being (someone else) He was certain would not sin? Same questions for Adam and Eve. Simply quoting a statement from EGW that says that God would establish His throne in righteousness doesn't even begin to address the question being asked here.
M:Why do you say it means we cannot impact the future? If the future has "already played out," it can't be impacted by anyone. That's what "already played out" means. Just like the past can't be impacted by anyone. Do you mean we cannot make choices resulting in an outcome different than the one God watched play out? This would be true. Do you think God's experience in time effects (alters, changes) our experience in time? If we care about logic, yes. Also, do you think God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously means He is cruel because He created certain FMAs even though He watched them sin and die in the lake of fire? Creating beings certain to be damned would be cruel, assuming this is what you're asking. If so, what makes you think not creating them was an option? You mean, if God is cruel, then not doing something cruel wouldn't be an option? Not sure how you're linking these last two questions together.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128398
10/26/10 10:45 PM
10/26/10 10:45 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
T: Actually, as I've explained on quite a few occasions, one's view of God isn't what matters. It's one view of the future that is relevant here. Is the future settled or not? Your view of God only matters in that it leads to the conclusion that the future is settled. E.g., you state that the future has "already played out." Given that the future has already played out, we may conclude that it's single-threaded, and consider the implications of that.
M:Again, are you suggesting God's experience in time effects (alters, changes) our experience in time? If so, why do you think so? If God's experience in time implies that the future has "already played out," that certainly impacts us. If the future is settled, then nothing we can do can impact it. You see how that would impact us, don't you? Or, do you agree with me that it makes no difference whatsoever, that is, time unfolds as if God is limited to time and space in exactly the same way we are. It's not really clear to me what you're asking here. You say "time unfolds as if God is limited to time and space ...," but this isn't the issue. The issue is how time and space unfolds for us. If you're asking if God's experience and knowledge of time makes a difference to us how time unfolds to us, I believe it does, because God's experience and knowledge of time if the definition of reality, in terms of time. That is, what God knows is what is, and what is impacts us. T: This is a false statement. I comprehend that. As I've explained, if God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously -- if the future has "already played out," (as you put it), that means the future is settled, which impacts how we experience time, if we care about logic.
M:What if you are wrong? What if time unfolds for us as if God does not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously? If time unfolds for us as if God does not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously, then I'm right, not wrong. Why do you think God's experience in time effects, alters, changes our experience in time? This has been asked and answered (it's "affects", btw) Why do you think it's impossible for God to exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously without it effecting, altering, changing how we experience time? This is the same question. I answered this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128399
10/26/10 10:48 PM
10/26/10 10:48 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
T:It's not simply that God knows the future like history, like it's already played out, but MM says that it HAS played out.
MM:...I also believe eternity has already played out and God alone knows "the end from the beginning".(emphasis mine)
T:This is the real crux of the problem. It's not simply that God knows the future as if it's played out, but *it's already played out*. That makes it completely settled.
M:Are you saying God's experience in time makes the future settled? I'm neither saying that nor not saying that here. I'm commenting on your statement that the future has "already played out." If the future has "already played out," then nothing we can do can impact it, any more than anything we could do could impact the past. If so, how and why? And, does it mean we are not truly free to choose as we please? Does it somehow rob us our ability and freedom to choose as we please? I answered this. Just a few posts back. Please look at the post where I speak of libertarian free will and compatibilistic free will.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128401
10/26/10 11:36 PM
10/26/10 11:36 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Kland, I believe God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously and that it has zero effect on how we experience time. We are just as free to choose as we please as if God does not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously. In other words, His existence in the past, present, and future does not effect, alter, change our experience in time. It doesn't effect, alter, change time in any way whatsoever. Time unfolds sequentially just as it always does. None of these things are things which kland asked you. What is the future like? That's what kland was asking. Is the future: a.Like history (played out) b.Open (not played out) c.Undefined
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128411
10/27/10 11:30 AM
10/27/10 11:30 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
|
|
Yes, Tom, thanks for clarifying my question, though I thought asking "what the future really is like" should have been clear enough versus if I had asked, does what the future really is like affect how we experience time.
MM, when you answer my question, could you also include what "played out" means to you.
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: kland]
#128415
10/27/10 02:48 PM
10/27/10 02:48 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
What I'm saying is God's experience in time does not affect, alter, change our experience in time. We experience time chronologically. We are free to choose as we please. It matters not one iota that God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously. It changes nothing so far as we are concerned. God's reality is not our reality for the simple reason we do not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously. For us the future really is wide open. It hasn't happened yet (i.e. played out). But for God eternity has happened and is happening simultaneously. Again, God's reality in no way destroys our reality.
I realize you believe none of this is possible. But I believe all of it is the truth. It accounts for why and how God has been and is able to prophesy precisely how the future will play out (i.e. unfold chronologically, happen).
|
|
|
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128418
10/27/10 03:09 PM
10/27/10 03:09 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Also, of all the possibilities God foresaw, I hear you saying some of them included all the angels sinning. If so, what changed so that now none of the possibilities include angels sinning? Whatever it is why didn't God do it in the beginning? If it guarantees none of the future possibilities includes angels sinning, wouldn't it have worked to ensure none of the angels would have sinned in the beginning? If not, why not?
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
