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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128853
11/13/10 06:00 PM
11/13/10 06:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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1. The sum and substance of Satan’s accusations is:

Quote:
The sum and substance of the arguments of Satan is that sin may be immortalized, that Christ abolished the law, and that evil doers may be in favor with God. But the death of Christ tells a different story; for he died to vindicate the claims of the law, to give to the world and to angels an unanswerable argument of the immutability of the law of Jehovah. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 11}

2. Satan influences people to further his accusations:

Quote:
Men may talk of the law as a yoke of bondage; but the question of vital interest is, If you are found disobedient to God, can they pay a ransom for your soul? I beg of you, do not take the word of man that the law is abolished, for that law is as immutable as the throne of God. If the law could have been altered to meet man in his fallen condition, Christ need never have died. The cross of Christ is an unanswerable argument demonstrating the changeless character of the law. The very fact that Christ died establishes the law. Says the apostle, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Christ died to vindicate the justice of God, and to remove the obstacles that man had placed between himself and eternal happiness. {ST, May 27, 1889 par. 7}

Satan is continuing the work on earth that he commenced in heaven. He leads men to transgress the commandments of God. The plain "Thus saith the Lord" is put aside for the "thus saith" of men. The whole world needs to be instructed in the oracles of God, to understand the object of the atonement, the at-one-ment, with God. The object of this atonement was that the divine law and government might be maintained. The sinner is pardoned through repentance toward God and faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. There is forgiveness of sin, and yet the law of God stands immutable, eternal as His throne. There is no such thing as weakening or strengthening the law of Jehovah. As it has always been, so it is. It cannot be repealed or changed in one principle. It is eternal, immutable as God Himself.--Manuscript 163, 1897. {7ABC 471.4}

Satan has declared that men could not enter the kingdom of heaven unless the law was abolished and a way devised by which transgressors could be reinstated into the favor of God, and made heirs of heaven. He made the claim that the law must be changed, that the reins of government must be slackened in heaven, that sin must be tolerated, and sinners pitied and saved in their sins. But every such plea was cast aside when Christ died as a substitute for the sinner. He who was made equal with God bore the sin of the transgressor, and thereby made a channel whereby the love of God could be communicated to a fallen world, and his grace and power imparted to those who came to Christ in penitence for their sin. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 10}

3. The object of Jesus’ death was to vindicate the law:

Quote:
The object of this atonement was that the divine law and government might be maintained. --Manuscript 163, 1897. {7ABC 471.4}

[Jesus] died to vindicate the claims of the law, to give to the world and to angels an unanswerable argument of the immutability of the law of Jehovah. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 11}

[God] gave the law, and Christ died to magnify it, and make it honorable. {RC 55.2}

The death of God's only begotten Son upon the cross in the sinner's behalf is the unanswerable argument as to the changeless character of the law of Jehovah. --The Review and Herald, May 23, 1899. {7ABC 471.1}

The death of Christ was to be the convincing, everlasting argument that the law of God is as unchangeable as His throne. --Manuscript 58, 1897. {7ABC 471.3}

The death of Christ removes every argument that Satan could bring against the precepts of Jehovah. --The Signs of the Times, May 21, 1912. {7ABC 472.2}

The fact that Christ suffered the penalty of the law for all transgressors, is an unanswerable argument as to its immutable character, and it will justly condemn those who have sought to make it void. {ST, July 14, 1890 par. 2}

The death of Christ removes every argument that Satan could bring against the precepts of Jehovah. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 10}

The cross of Christ is an unanswerable argument demonstrating the changeless character of the law. The very fact that Christ died establishes the law. {ST, May 27, 1889 par. 7}

It was the cross of Calvary that exalted the law of God and made it honorable, and showed its immutable character, and thus it is demonstrated before all the worlds God has created, and before the heavenly angels, that the law is changeless. {RH, June 10, 1890 par. 10}

While the death of Christ, as we have seen, brought the law of types and shadows, or the ceremonial law, to an end, it did not in the least detract from the dignity of the moral law, or make it void. On the contrary, the very fact that Christ died to satisfy the claims of that law, shows the immutability of its character. {ST, July 15, 1880 par. 13}

Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave His life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute; He died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. He suffered the full penalty of a broken law for the whole world. This He did, not that men might continue in transgression, but that they might return to their loyalty and keep God's commandments and His law as the apple of their eye. {TM 134.1}

Let us study God's law in connection with the work of Christ. Man broke the law. Christ came to this earth to make an atonement for transgression. His atonement was complete in every part. As He hung on the cross, He could say, "It is finished." The demands of justice were satisfied. The way to the throne of grace was opened for every sinner. {ST, July 31, 1901 par. 8}

The law stands firm, and justice sternly points the sinner to its holy precepts. It is not the province of the law to save the sinner, but to condemn, not to pardon, but to convict. It can not be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. Then how is God's justice to be satisfied and His favor obtained? Not by works; "for by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight." In his own strength the sinner can not meet the demands of God. He must go for help to the One who paid the ransom for him. It is impossible for him of himself to keep the law. But Christ can give him strength to do this. The Saviour came to this world and in human flesh lived a life of perfect obedience, that the sinner might stand before God justified and accepted. {ST, July 31, 1901 par. 9}

Christ is our hope. Those who trust in Him are cleansed. The grace of Christ and the government of God walk together in perfect harmony. When Jesus became man's substitute, mercy and truth met together, and righteousness and peace kissed each other. The cross of Calvary bears witness to the high claims of God's law. Christ did not die to encourage man in rebellion against God, but to provide a way whereby he might keep the whole law. His garment of spotless righteousness clothes the repenting, believing sinner. He is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption. {ST, July 31, 1901 par. 10}

4. The death of Jesus gives God the right to pardon and save the penitent:

Quote:
That sinful, repentant human beings might be received by the Father, and clothed with the robe of righteousness, Christ came to the earth, and made an offering of such value that he redeemed the race. Through the sacrifice made on Calvary is offered to everyone the sanctification of grace. --Letter 67, 1902. {7ABC 468.1}

Our sins were laid on Christ, punished in Christ, put away by Christ, in order that his righteousness might be imputed to us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Although sin was charged to His account on our behalf, yet He remained perfectly sinless.--The Signs of the Times, May 30, 1895. {7ABC 468.2}

What right had Christ to take the captives out of the enemy's hands? The right of having made a sacrifice that satisfies the principles of justice by which the kingdom of heaven is governed. He came to this earth as the Redeemer of the lost race, to conquer the wily foe, and, by His steadfast allegiance to right, to save all who accept Him as their Saviour. On the cross of Calvary He paid the redemption price of the race. And thus He gained the right to take the captives from the grasp of the great deceiver, who, by a lie, framed against the government of God, caused the fall of man, and thus forfeited all claim to be called a loyal subject of God's glorious everlasting kingdom.--The Signs of the Times, Sept. 30, 1903. {7ABC 475.3}

Christ was invested with the right to give immortality. The life which he had laid down in humanity, he again took up and gave to humanity. {YI, August 4, 1898 par. 5}

Jesus Christ offered his life as a ransom for the lost, as the price by which he might purchase the right to re-create the sinner, and form again the image of God in the soul. {ST, December 12, 1895 par. 9}

After the fall, it had been impossible for man with his sinful nature to render obedience to the law of God, had not Christ, by the offer of his own life, purchased the right to lift up the race where they could once more work in harmony with its requirements. {RH, September 27, 1881 par. 11}

God, being the creditor, had a right to make any provision for the redemption of human beings. Justice demanded that a certain price be paid. The Son of God was the only One who could pay this price. --Letter 20, 1903. {7ABC 468.7}

The thought that Christ died to obtain for us the gift of everlasting life is enough to call forth from our hearts the most sincere and fervent gratitude, and from our lips the most enthusiastic praise. {ST, March 10, 1887 par. 15}

He who was made equal with God bore the sin of the transgressor, and thereby made a channel whereby the love of God could be communicated to a fallen world, and his grace and power imparted to those who came to Christ in penitence for their sin. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 10}

Those who return to their loyalty to God are precious in his sight; for Christ died to redeem these souls from the bondage of sin; he died to secure the eternal happiness of fallen man. {ST, May 20, 1897 par. 15}

"Let not your heart be troubled," He said; "ye believe in God," who is so plainly revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures. Believe in Me as the brightness of His glory, the manifestation of His character. "In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you," to secure for you the right to a home in My Father's kingdom. {ST, December 20, 1899 par. 5}

Christ died to purchase salvation for us. {ST, June 17, 1903 par. 12}

Christ died to redeem us. {13MR 329.2}

Christ died to redeem the race, who had fallen under the power of Satan's temptations. {SW, April 28, 1908 par. 4}

God would have us estimate the value placed on us by the price paid for us. Christ died to save us from everlasting ruin. {20MR 322.2}

Keep before the people the cross of Calvary. Show what caused the death of Christ,--the transgression of the law. Show that Christ died to give men an opportunity of becoming loyal subjects of His kingdom. {PH130 26.3}

But our Saviour, who was equal with God himself, came into our world and suffered the death upon the cross, to give man another probation. {RH, June 10, 1890 par. 10}

Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH, September 10, 1901 par. 5}

Sin is the transgression of the law. Christ died to make it possible for every man to have his sins taken away. {21MR 193.5}

Christ died to bring to men the saving power of the gospel. {1NL 33.8}

5. The death of Jesus satisfied the demands of law and justice:

Quote:
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

[The] plan of redemption, devised in Heaven, transferred the sentence of death from the obedient and faithful, to a substitute. There must be the shedding of blood, for death was the consequence of man's sin. In the slain victim, man was to see for the time being the fulfillment of God's word: "Ye shall surely die." The flowing blood also signified an atonement, and pointed forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of man, thus fully vindicating his Father's law. {2SP 85.3}

But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a substitute of superior value to the law of God. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Ye shall surely die." And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate his Father's law. {RH, March 3, 1874 par. 1}

Christ satisfied the demands of the law in His human nature. He bore the curse of the law for the sinner, made an atonement for him, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {FW 93.3}

Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? No; God cannot dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. {AG 138.4}

Jesus suffered the extreme penalty of the law for our transgression, and justice was fully satisfied. The law is not abrogated; it has not lost one jot of its force. Instead, it stands forth in holy dignity, Christ's death on the cross testifying to its immutability. Its demands have been met, its authority maintained. {HP 15.3}

Was the penalty remitted because He was the Son of God? Were the vials of wrath withheld from Him who was made sin for us? Without abatement the penalty fell upon our divine-human Substitute. {HP 15.5}

The death of Christ was to be the convincing, everlasting argument that the law of God is as unchangeable as His throne. The agonies of the garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, the abuse heaped upon God's dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstration that God's justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the Surety for man, was not spared, is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law.--Manuscript 58, 1897. {7ABC 471.3}

Satan endeavored to keep hidden from the world the great atoning sacrifice which reveals the law in all its sacred dignity, and impresses hearts with the force of its binding claims. He was warring against the work of Christ, and united all his evil angels with human instrumentalities in opposition to that work. But while he was carrying on this work, heavenly intelligences were combining with human instrumentalities in the work of restoration. The cross stands as the great center of the world, bearing a certain testimony that the cross of Christ will be the condemnation of every transgressor of the law of God. Here are the two great powers, the power of truth and righteousness and the working of Satan to make of none effect the law of God.--Manuscript 61, 1899. {7ABC 472.1}

But those who receive Christ are melted and subdued by the manifestation of his love in his humiliation, suffering, and death in their behalf. They behold him as their substitute and surety, as pledging himself to accomplish their full salvation through a plan that is consistent with the justice of God, and which vindicates the honor of his law. The presentation of the love of God has a convincing power above that of argument, controversy, and debate, and drops the seed of gospel truth in the heart. The fact that Jesus, innocent and pure, should suffer, that God should lay all his wrath upon the head of his dear Son, that the guiltless should bear the punishment of the guilty, the just endure the penalty of sin for the unjust, breaks the heart; and as Jesus is lifted up, conviction strikes to the soul, and the love that prompted the bestowal of the infinite gift of Christ, constrains the sinner to surrender all to God. {RH, July 24, 1894 par. 1}

After Satan brought sin into the world, he tempted man to set himself in rebellion against the authority of God. He inspired him with hatred against God because of the results that followed sin. He suggested that God was arbitrary, destitute of mercy and benevolence, because the penalty of the law fell upon the transgressor. When fallen man views God in this light, he casts aside his authority as a moral governor. God has a right to enforce the penalty of the law upon transgressors, for law without a penalty would be without force. God's law is the foundation of all law and government. The fact that Christ suffered the penalty of the law for all transgressors, is an unanswerable argument as to its immutable character, and it will justly condemn those who have sought to make it void. When the curse fell upon the beloved Son of God, who became sin for us, the Father made it manifest that the unrepenting transgressor of his law would have to suffer its full penalty. The word of God declares, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." The law of God was upheld and vindicated by the Son of God. The death of Christ, as an expiatory sacrifice, opens a way whereby the sinner may be pardoned, and turn from the path of transgression into the path of truth and righteousness, while at the same time it vindicates the honor and unchangeableness of the law. In the plan of salvation, justice and mercy clasp hands together. {ST, July 14, 1890 par. 2}

Jesus said, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life." He gave his life for the sheep. The only-begotten Son of God accepts all the liabilities that fall upon the transgressor of the law, vindicates its unchangeable and holy character. The death of Christ removes every argument that Satan could bring against the precepts of Jehovah. Satan has declared that men could not enter the kingdom of heaven unless the law was abolished and a way devised by which transgressors could be reinstated into the favor of God, and made heirs of heaven. He made the claim that the law must be changed, that the reins of government must be slackened in heaven, that sin must be tolerated, and sinners pitied and saved in their sins. But every such plea was cast aside when Christ died as a substitute for the sinner. He who was made equal with God bore the sin of the transgressor, and thereby made a channel whereby the love of God could be communicated to a fallen world, and his grace and power imparted to those who came to Christ in penitence for their sin. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 10}

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128864
11/15/10 02:01 AM
11/15/10 02:01 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
1.Lucifer desired to be first in heaven.

Quote:
Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven.


2.To gain control, to win homage for himself, he misrepresented God.

Quote:
He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation.


3.He represented his own evil characteristics as pertaining to God.

Quote:
With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator.


4.This is how he deceived angels.

Quote:
Thus he deceived angels.


5.And men.

Quote:
Thus he deceived men.


6.Satan's power could not be broken by force.

Quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force.


7.In point of fact, the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government.

Quote:
The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government.


8.To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan.

Quote:
To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan.


9.Only Christ could accomplish this task.

Quote:
This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (all quoted from DA 21-22)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128875
11/15/10 06:22 PM
11/15/10 06:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I don't see where you addressed 128846, 128847, and 128848.

And, shall I assume your last post compliments the conclusions I drew in the post preceding yours? I say this because in the context of the passage you posted Ellen wrote"

Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Hebrews 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128890
11/15/10 09:21 PM
11/15/10 09:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T:These are all the same as GC 35-57, IMO. God does things to prevent sin/Satan causing death and destruction, which could be "in a thousand different ways." When people have rejected the Holy Spirit to the point to where they have totally rejected God, God leaves them to the result of their choice.

M:Does Jesus do anything that enables it?


Yes, Jesus enabled the ability of people to reject the Holy Spirit by giving them free will.

Originally Posted By: MM
M:You seem to think when Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction that the resulting death and destruction constitutes Satan exercising force and violence. I, on the other hand, think it constitutes justice and judgment, the "act of punishment".

T:This seems a bit confusing to me. Are you saying that when Satan causes destruction and death, he's not exercising force or using violence?

M:Do you think Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction that the resulting death and destruction constitutes Satan exercising force and violence?


Please answer my question.

Originally Posted By: MM
M:By the way, the main thing I wanted to draw attention to on this thread is the fact Ellen emphasized one of the main things secured by the death of Jesus was the vindication of the law.

T:This is to counter the arguments of antinomian Evengelicals who say that Christ's death means it's not necessary to keep the law.

M:More to the point it proved the claims of God and disproved the accusations of Satan regarding the value and validity of the law.


I should have said, "This is primarily to counter the arguments of antinomian Evangelicals."

The primary problem of the Great Controversy centers around God's character. Satan sought to win the homage of God's creatures to himself, and to accomplish this he lied about God's character. Some of these lies involve the law, and some don't. The lies regarding the law are just one of the ruses Satan uses to misrepresent God's character.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128891
11/15/10 09:24 PM
11/15/10 09:24 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, I don't see where you addressed 128846, 128847, and 128848.


I just addressed them in response to this comment.

Quote:
And, shall I assume your last post compliments the conclusions I drew in the post preceding yours?


I think the primary problem involves God's character, and the problems regarding the law should be understood in the context of this primary problem. Since the law is a transcript of God's character, it should be easy to see how an attack against the law would be an attack against God's character, but this isn't the only means that Satan uses to attack God's character.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128917
11/16/10 05:30 PM
11/16/10 05:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
T: These are all the same as GC 35-57, IMO. God does things to prevent sin/Satan causing death and destruction, which could be "in a thousand different ways." When people have rejected the Holy Spirit to the point to where they have totally rejected God, God leaves them to the result of their choice.

M: Does Jesus do anything that enables it?

T: Yes, Jesus enabled the ability of people to reject the Holy Spirit by giving them free will.

Above you wrote, "God does (a thousand different) things to prevent sin/Satan causing death and destruction". How does sin, which you say is not a sentient being, cause death and destruction? Are you referring to the results of sinning like smoking causes cancer? And, are you suggesting God need only cease preventing it and sin and/or Satan will cause death and destruction? Please name a few contrasting ways this has played out. Thank you.

Quote:
M: You seem to think when Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction that the resulting death and destruction constitutes Satan exercising force and violence. I, on the other hand, think it constitutes justice and judgment, the "act of punishment".

T: This seems a bit confusing to me. Are you saying that when Satan causes destruction and death, he's not exercising force or using violence?

M: Do you think Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction that the resulting death and destruction constitutes Satan exercising force and violence?

T: Please answer my question.

I came across this interesting insight regarding force and violence: “The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matthew 11:12). The violence here meant is a holy earnestness, such as Jacob manifested. {OFC 136.2} Seek "the kingdom of heaven with a spiritual violence . . . take it by force, as did Jacob. {RC 217.5} "This violence takes in the whole heart. {1BC 1095.8}


Obviously, there is a positive kind of force and violence we are required to incorporate into our prayer life. However, there is another demonstration of force and violence which reflected the "act of punishment". Ellen wrote - "The storm increased in violence until water seemed to come from heaven like mighty cataracts. . . Jets of water would burst up from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and then they would bury themselves deep in the earth. {SR 66.2}

As you know millions of men, women, and children perished as a result of this single "act of punishment". Powerful forces and violence served to execute the justice and judgment of God Almighty. Was it considered more or less forceful and violent when the "act of punishment" involved God withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to influence Roman soldiers to kill thousands of men, women, and children in 70 AD? I don't know, you tell me.

Quote:
M: By the way, the main thing I wanted to draw attention to on this thread is the fact Ellen emphasized one of the main things secured by the death of Jesus was the vindication of the law.

T: This is to counter the arguments of antinomian Evengelicals who say that Christ's death means it's not necessary to keep the law.

M: More to the point it proved the claims of God and disproved the accusations of Satan regarding the value and validity of the law.

T: I should have said, "This is primarily to counter the arguments of antinomian Evangelicals." The primary problem of the Great Controversy centers around God's character. Satan sought to win the homage of God's creatures to himself, and to accomplish this he lied about God's character. Some of these lies involve the law, and some don't. The lies regarding the law are just one of the ruses Satan uses to misrepresent God's character. . . I think the primary problem involves God's character, and the problems regarding the law should be understood in the context of this primary problem. Since the law is a transcript of God's character, it should be easy to see how an attack against the law would be an attack against God's character, but this isn't the only means that Satan uses to attack God's character.

Do you think the loyal angels were unsure of God? Were they unclear as to His traits and attributes of character? Were they afraid of Him? Did they somehow cease believing what they believed about God's character as they pleaded with the disgruntled angels in heaven? Or, were they unsure of Satan's accusations regarding the law?

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128918
11/16/10 05:35 PM
11/16/10 05:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Here's yet another passage which makes it clear Jesus earned the right to pardon and save the penitent by paying our sin debt of death:

"Some of them [who railed on Jesus on the cross] would yet see their sin, and repent, and be converted. Some by their impenitence would make it an impossibility for the prayer of Christ to be answered for them. Yet, just the same, God's purpose was reaching its fulfillment. Jesus was earning the right to become the advocate of men in the Father's presence. {DA 744.3}

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128921
11/16/10 06:19 PM
11/16/10 06:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T: These are all the same as GC 35-57, IMO. God does things to prevent sin/Satan causing death and destruction, which could be "in a thousand different ways." When people have rejected the Holy Spirit to the point to where they have totally rejected God, God leaves them to the result of their choice.

M: Does Jesus do anything that enables it?

T: Yes, Jesus enabled the ability of people to reject the Holy Spirit by giving them free will.

M:Above you wrote, "God does (a thousand different) things to prevent sin/Satan causing death and destruction". How does sin, which you say is not a sentient being, cause death and destruction? Are you referring to the results of sinning like smoking causes cancer? And, are you suggesting God need only cease preventing it and sin and/or Satan will cause death and destruction? Please name a few contrasting ways this has played out. Thank you.


The "thousand ways" is from Ellen White. Natural disasters, Satan, evil men, accidents, disease are a few that come to mind.

Quote:
M: You seem to think when Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction that the resulting death and destruction constitutes Satan exercising force and violence. I, on the other hand, think it constitutes justice and judgment, the "act of punishment".

T: This seems a bit confusing to me. Are you saying that when Satan causes destruction and death, he's not exercising force or using violence?

M: Do you think Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction that the resulting death and destruction constitutes Satan exercising force and violence?

T: Please answer my question.


You wrote more than last time, but I still don't know the answer to my question. It's a yes or no question.

The positive use of "violence" was interesting.

Quote:
T: I should have said, "This is primarily to counter the arguments of antinomian Evangelicals." The primary problem of the Great Controversy centers around God's character. Satan sought to win the homage of God's creatures to himself, and to accomplish this he lied about God's character. Some of these lies involve the law, and some don't. The lies regarding the law are just one of the ruses Satan uses to misrepresent God's character. . . I think the primary problem involves God's character, and the problems regarding the law should be understood in the context of this primary problem. Since the law is a transcript of God's character, it should be easy to see how an attack against the law would be an attack against God's character, but this isn't the only means that Satan uses to attack God's character.

M:Do you think the loyal angels were unsure of God? Were they unclear as to His traits and attributes of character? Were they afraid of Him? Did they somehow cease believing what they believed about God's character as they pleaded with the disgruntled angels in heaven? Or, were they unsure of Satan's accusations regarding the law?


From "The Desire of Ages"

Quote:
Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10. {DA 761.1}

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}


I think this should answer your questions.

Quote:
Here's yet another passage which makes it clear Jesus earned the right to pardon and save the penitent by paying our sin debt of death:

"Some of them [who railed on Jesus on the cross] would yet see their sin, and repent, and be converted. Some by their impenitence would make it an impossibility for the prayer of Christ to be answered for them. Yet, just the same, God's purpose was reaching its fulfillment. Jesus was earning the right to become the advocate of men in the Father's presence. {DA 744.3}


This speaks of Christ's earning the right to become the advocate of men. It doesn't say anything about earning the right to pardon. Christ had already pardoned before this time.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128933
11/17/10 02:11 AM
11/17/10 02:11 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I would appreciate it you answered all the questions above. Thank you.

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128949
11/17/10 04:02 PM
11/17/10 04:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I assume you mean these questions:

Do you think the loyal angels were unsure of God? Were they unclear as to His traits and attributes of character? Were they afraid of Him? Did they somehow cease believing what they believed about God's character as they pleaded with the disgruntled angels in heaven? Or, were they unsure of Satan's accusations regarding the law?

From the DA quote I cited, we can see that what EGW most centers on is the character of Satan. From that I would conclude that much of their doubt was related to his character.

From reading the DA quote, it looks to me that what was happening was that Satan was causing all sorts of havoc, but was able to deflect the blame from himself, by his confusing tactics, until Christ came, at which point it became obvious to the angels what was really happening.

Regarding your questions about the loyal angels which pleaded with the unfaithful ones, it should be noted that not all of the loyal angels did so. The angels seemed to be in different states regarding Satan's accusations. Some believed Satan completely, and took his side. Some were on the other side (the ones who pleaded with the rebellious ones not to rebel), and some were in the middle.

She writes elsewhere that the angels are only secure as they look to the cross. Why do you think that is?

You've asked me dozens of questions regarding this, and I've answered your questions in the past. I'm not understanding what the confusion is. Perhaps you could tell me what you think she meant when she wrote this. It seems to me that I've been echoing what she said, but when I do so, you seem to take exception to this. I don't know why.

I don't think that it was so much that the angels changed their minds, but that there was a settling into truth that the cross brought about. I think they changed their minds about Satan, however. Before the cross, they thought he was wrong, while after the cross they were 100% convinced. Not only were they convinced he was wrong, but they became convinced regarding his character that he was a murderer and a liar.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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