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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128989
11/18/10 03:41 AM
11/18/10 03:41 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Tom, I still cannot discern from your answers what you believe will cause wicked humans and evil angels to suffer and die according to their sinfulness.


From DA 764:

Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is “alienated from the life of God.” Christ says, “All they that hate Me love death.” Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God’s goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}


This says:

1.God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

2.By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

3.Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

Quote:
It sounds like you're saying two different things will be at work:

1) the revelation and comprehension of the truth about God's character.

2) the revelation and comprehension of their sinfulness.

It seems like you're saying a combination of these two things in concert and contrast will result in the suffering and second death of the wicked.

Is this what you believe?


Yes, but I think 1) is what causes 2). That is, the wicked realize their sinfulness because of the revelation of God's character of love.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #129007
11/18/10 04:15 PM
11/18/10 04:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
While holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Truly this describes "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

Indeed! God and Satan, working hand in hand, vying to see who can cause more death and destruction.

Strange you should draw such a conclusion. You, more than anyone I know, argue vehemently that God will "use His enemies" to "execute justice" and judgment, His strange "act of punishment". Ellen wrote:

There is to be such a time of trouble as there never was since there was a nation. Already nations are angry, already Satan is working with signs and lying wonders, and this will increase until the end. God will use his enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. These enemies of God are living evidences of the truth of His word; they are fulfilling that which holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. God does not forewarn His people of trifles; the repetition of caution and warnings shows that there is importance in that which was spoken. Do those who claim to want light, treat the light with the respect which is due? {PC 136.3}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #129008
11/18/10 05:00 PM
11/18/10 05:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
You may not remember this, but I pointed this out a couple of years ago. It's interesting that she brings out these two points. On the one hand, the sinner is destroyed because he separates himself from God, who alone is the source of life. On the other hand, the glory of God, who is love, destroys him. How should we put these together?

Personally, I believe it is the light radiating from the person and presence of God that causes them to suffer and die according to their sinfulness. Separating from God, the source of life, merely means they subject themselves to final judgment.

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #129009
11/18/10 05:06 PM
11/18/10 05:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
The wicked realize their sinfulness because of the revelation of God's character of love.

Why does it cause them to suffer and die?

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #129025
11/19/10 05:02 PM
11/19/10 05:02 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, 4MR 444 makes it clear God permits evil angels to cause death and destruction "as far as God allows".

I guess I didn't see anything in those quotes about evil angels. Maybe it's one of those implied things.

If you agree that in those quotes God's wrath is Him permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction as allowed, and if these "are but faint representations of what will be in the near future", would you agree that in the near future, God's wrath will be evil angels causing death and destruction?

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #129027
11/19/10 05:11 PM
11/19/10 05:11 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
M: While holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Truly this describes "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

T: Indeed! God and Satan, working hand in hand, vying to see who can cause more death and destruction.

M: Strange you should draw such a conclusion. You, more than anyone I know, argue vehemently that God will "use His enemies" to "execute justice" and judgment, His strange "act of punishment".
I'm trying to figure this logic out. You say that God pours out wrath and evil angels will be pouring out wrath at the same time, Tom says both doing the same thing, then you say Tom should know God uses evil angels to execute justice. Isn't that the "conclusion" he stated? Are you in disagreement with that conclusion?

If I am wrong about you offering no practical advice, here's an opportunity to offer some. If someone is seeing death and destruction, is there any way to determine whether evil angels or God is causing it? Think of the coming accusations against a certain group causing God to be angry. Is there any way for them to know whether it is indeed God causing the destruction or if it's evil angels? By "them", meaning either side.

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #129028
11/19/10 05:18 PM
11/19/10 05:18 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Why does it cause them to suffer and die?


Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is “alienated from the life of God.” Christ says, “All they that hate Me love death.” Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God’s goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}


You've asked me this question many times, and my response has been to quote this. I've offered some thoughts, but I'm hesitant to go beyond what's written here. It says:

1.This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.

The primary definition of "arbitrary" is

Quote:
1
: depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary>


People often use it to mean "capricious", or "whimsical", meaning without a reason. But the context doesn't bear out this interpretation, as EGW does not explain that God was just for destroying the wicked, but that the wicked reap what they sow, and they are causing their own destruction. This agrees with the primary definition.

2.The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.

Death comes are a result of sin. This is repeated later in the quoted.

3.God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

This seems to explain how death occurs. The sinner separates himself from life.

4.God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

This again makes the point that the wicked receive the results of their choice. This is the wrath of God.

5.Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished.

This points out that when God lets go, which is His exercising His wrath (see Romans 1), the wicked perish.

So these are the principles involved.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #129030
11/19/10 05:27 PM
11/19/10 05:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
M:While holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions. Truly this describes "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation."

T:Indeed! God and Satan, working hand in hand, vying to see who can cause more death and destruction.

M:Strange you should draw such a conclusion. You, more than anyone I know, argue vehemently that God will "use His enemies" to "execute justice" and judgment, His strange "act of punishment".


Is this what you understand is going on? Or do you see God's using holy angels to cause destruction? It sounded to me like you were saying both holy angels and evil angels were simultaneously causing destruction. This isn't what you think?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #129031
11/19/10 05:31 PM
11/19/10 05:31 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T:You may not remember this, but I pointed this out a couple of years ago. It's interesting that she brings out these two points. On the one hand, the sinner is destroyed because he separates himself from God, who alone is the source of life. On the other hand, the glory of God, who is love, destroys him. How should we put these together?

M:Personally, I believe it is the light radiating from the person and presence of God that causes them to suffer and die according to their sinfulness.


Yes, like "Raiders from the Lost Ark." I remember. I think I responded this was, to me, a superficial understanding of what's happening, since it's only physical.

Quote:
Separating from God, the source of life, merely means they subject themselves to final judgment.


She wrote:

Quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.


How do you have this mean that the wicked are subjecting themselves to judgment?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: kland] #129035
11/19/10 06:40 PM
11/19/10 06:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Kland, 4MR 444 makes it clear God permits evil angels to cause death and destruction "as far as God allows".

I guess I didn't see anything in those quotes about evil angels. Maybe it's one of those implied things. If you agree that in those quotes God's wrath is Him permitting evil angels to cause death and destruction as allowed, and if these "are but faint representations of what will be in the near future", would you agree that in the near future, God's wrath will be evil angels causing death and destruction?

She refers to "the powers of darkness" which I take to mean evil angels. I suppose it could include evil humans. To what purpose does God employ these kinds of "agencies" and "means" of death and destruction? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
What mean the awful calamities by sea--vessels hurled into eternity without a moment's warning? What mean the accidents by land--fire consuming the riches that men have hoarded, much of which has been accumulated by oppression of the poor? The Lord will not interfere to protect the property of those who transgress His law, break His covenant, and trample upon His Sabbath, accepting in its place a spurious rest day. {LDE 27.4}

The plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away the most costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him.--3MR 311 (1902). {LDE 28.1}

God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word.--19MR 279 (1902). {LDE 28.2}

How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man, but in them all God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger.--PK 277 (c. 1914). {LDE 28.3}

The angels who cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues are holy angels. They go out from the temple in heaven. Holy angels praise God for His judgments.

Quote:
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]; and every living soul died in the sea.
16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

A holy angel said, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked."

Quote:
Already the restraining Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they may not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid his angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of his avenging wrath as no pen can picture. {RH, January 11, 1887 par. 14}

Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God, or be cut down by the destroying weapons. Already a few drops of God's wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}

At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}

Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall. I was then made capable of enduring the awful sight of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God. I saw that His anger was dreadful and terrible, and if He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world would be as though they had never been, or would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues that would come upon them, and they would find no deliverance, but be destroyed by them. {EW 64.2}

The world is soon to be left by the angel of mercy and the seven last plagues are to be poured out. . . . The bolts of God's wrath are soon to fall, and when He shall begin to punish the transgressors there will be no period of respite until the end.--TM 182 (1894). {LDE 238.2}

"It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. . . If He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world . . . would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues [and] be destroyed by them. . . He shall . . . punish the transgressors. . . God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also."

You asked, "If these 'are but faint representations of what will be in the near future', would you agree that in the near future, God's wrath will be evil angels causing death and destruction?" Yes, of course. Evil angels, as far as Jesus permits, cause death and destruction. Jesus "uses His enemies" to "execute justice and judgment". The "act of punishment" often involves evil angels causing death and destruction.

However, do you agree holy angels will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

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