The Holy Spirit probably, even surely did, as also with Bathsheba and Uriah (cf. 1 Kgs 15:5). David just didn’t... listen

but later thought better and listened and only let her ‘serve and attend to him’. (1 Kgs 1:2 vs. 4). I think it is significant that “laying with him’ is not repeated in any way. So he may indeed have categorically refused any such things.

Nonetheless, if the other case: “the character is revealed by the works, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.” (SC 57.2)

M: Really? Seems to me you’ve been saying the Holy Spirit does not reveal “every” spot of defilement, "every" defective trait of character, in light of the cross, before they experience rebirth.

T: No, I've never said this.

M: Seems to me you’ve been saying time and circumstances cause the Holy Spirit to wait on revealing certain sinful habits and defects until well after they experience rebirth. Did I misunderstand you?

T: I've said that a person does not have all light on the commandments upon being born again. Also that the Holy Spirit does not reveal everything at once in regards to sins a person may be committing.

M: You wrote, “please quote anything at all that in any way separates these last six commandments from the first four in the way that you do (specifically, your idea that people know the last six commandments instinctively).” I responded by posting quotes which make it clear dividing the law between the first four and last six commandments is common knowledge. I’m sure you agree.

T: Yes. The first four commandments have to do with our relation to God, and the last six to man.

M: Then I posted quotes which make it clear people who are unfamiliar with the Bible “do by nature the things contained in the law.” Obviously what they know and do “by nature” does not include the first four commandments.

T: Sure it does. This is what I'm asking you to provide some quote for.

M: What they know and do “by nature” therefore must necessarily refer to the last six commandments “contained in the law.” I’m not sure if you agree.

T: What they know by nature obviously includes the first four commandments, or else they would be without excuse for not recognizing God or giving Him thanks. This clearly doesn't have to do with the last six commandments. There are two idea here which you haven't substantiated: 1.A person knows instinctively everything that is possible to be known about the last six commandments. 2.The statement referring to what those who do things by nature is excluding the first four commandments.

T: The principle the angel articulated applies to any commandment. Why wouldn't it? Also, you should reword what the angel said (any more than you reword what I say) to give a different meaning than that intended. E.g., the angel did not say "acceptable." That is, the angel did not say that any given act was "acceptable," but rather articulated the principle that one's guilt is dependent upon the light that one has.

M:Do you think the no-light-equals-no-sin principle applies to rape, incest, murder, stealing, and lying if the person committing such sins is clueless such sins are forbidden and condemned by God? In other words, in judgment would they stand innocent and guiltless before God?

T: I don't think the principle the angel articulated depends on what given sin is committed.

M:They don’t. They clearly teach that newborn babes are born again without sin, in complete harmony with everything Jesus commanded. That’s my point.

T: You just said that most people are born again not doing everything Jesus commanded. You said you recognized this was the case.

M:Yes, that’s what I believe. However, I also believe the Bible nowhere describes rebirth happening before people learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. The quotes I posted above are samples of passages which make it clear people learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded before they experienced rebirth. The fact people experience rebirth nowadays before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded was unheard of in the days of the apostles. Do you agree? If not, please post passages from the Bible that describe people experiencing rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

T: So you're saying that in Jesus' time, nobody was born again unless they did everything Jesus commanded, but nowadays this isn't the case? And you're asking me to post passages from the Bible if I disagree with this? I don't think this is a reasonable request. You're asking me to post passages from Scripture about something which is not discussed in Scripture. Scripture described the process of being born again in John 3. There's nothing there about doing everything that Jesus commanded. The process is described here from the SOP as well: “How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.(DA 175) *All* that is involved in being reborn is to give one's heart to Christ. That's it.

M:Really? Seems to me you’ve been saying time and circumstances cause the Holy Spirit to wait on revealing certain sinful habits and defects until well after they experience rebirth. Did I misunderstand you?

T: Rebirth involves giving one's heart to Christ. The Holy Spirit reveals what's necessary to bring that about. The goal is: the sinner gives his heart to Christ. The means is: revelation of the love of God, and conviction of sin. The Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everything at once which involves sin in a person's life. You've already recognized this as far as the Sabbath is concerned (and I think you've included some other things, such as dress reform and what one eats, as well). There's no need to limit it to just these things, which Luther, for example, illustrates.

M: Luther’s advice [in the quote you posted] reflects ignorance – not that he hated or despised Jews prejudicially. Jesus also recognized the ignorance of people when He said, “It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs.” “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.”

T: So Luther's attitude was OK, and there was no sin involved. I guess. It really looks like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here. You're pretty much, in this last statement, just agreeing 100% with what I've been saying all along. Yes, ignorance is involved, which has been my point, which means that he did not have 100% light on the last six commandments. QED.

M:I disagree. Luther’s advice regarding Jews did not advocate anything contrary to the law of God. His “attitude” toward Jews was in harmony with the law of God.

T: But Luther's actions weren't OK. If his actions weren't OK, and the reason why is because of ignorance (which would have to be the explanation, given his attitude was OK), then this agrees with what I've been saying all along. Here we have an example of sin which is included in the last six commandments which is not regarded as such, because of ignorance. So it is not the case that Luther instinctively knew what he was doing was wrong.

T: You asked if I agreed with what she wrote. I replied that I think what she wrote is good counsel. How does this not address your question? I also asked you a question, which you didn't answer. I asked, "Is there any reason you would think I would disagree with something she wrote?" Is there? If so, what is it? If not, why did you ask the question?

M:Her counsel in MR 373 forbids baptizing people before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

T: Is this actually what it says? Could you quote the part that says this?

MR No. 373 - Preparation for Baptism

The preparation for baptism is a matter that needs to be carefully considered. The new converts to the truth should be faithfully instructed in the plain, "Thus saith the Lord." The word of the Lord is to be read and explained to them point by point. {6MR 155.1}

All who enter upon the new life should understand, prior to their baptism, that the Lord requires the undivided affections. In the sermon on the mount are given most precious lessons from the lips of the great Teacher. He says, "no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Again he says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarkation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep his commandments and those who love him not and disregard his precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth. We are not only to say, I believe, but to practice the truth. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, soul, body, and spirit. {6MR 155.2}

The question put to Christ by a lawyer was, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" There stood the wily priests and rulers expecting to hear from the lips of Christ an answer that would give them opportunity to condemn him. He who reads every heart as an open book understood their purpose. Turning to the lawyer, Christ said unto him, "What is written in the Law? how readest thou?" He gives him an opportunity to answer his own question. And the lawyer answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: This do, and thou shalt live." Christ will not accept a divided heart. The life of the receiver of truth should witness to the change wrought by the transformation of character. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord." Why? Because they have an indwelling Saviour, who works the mind and heart to reveal that love for Christ which leads them to do his will, not their own. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. {6MR 156.1}

There is need of a much more thorough preparation of the candidates for baptism than has been given them. Satan does not want any one to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the senses, so that true conversion may not take place. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This conformity to the mind and will of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. {6MR 156.2}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need faithful instruction is the subject of dress. In the examination of candidates for baptism this subject should not be lost sight of. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. True conversion of the heart will work wonderful changes in the outward appearance. {6MR 158.1}

There should be no carelessness in dress. Teach the young converts that dress is a talent. For Christ's sake, whose property we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before him. Thus we are taught that the Lord has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolical. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolical. In all things we are to be representatives of him. Good taste should be exercised in the selection of appropriate colors. Our dress should be tidy and well-fitting. The hair should be carefully arranged. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the word of God gives us no sanction in making changes in our apparel merely for the sake of fashion, that we may appear like the world. When the desire for display in dress absorbs the mind, vanity is manifested. All this must be put away. {6MR 158.2}

The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says, "In like manner also, let women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." And through the apostle Peter the instruction is given, "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." {6MR 159.1}

Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array of expensive ornaments. All this display imparts no value to the character. The Lord desires every converted person to put away the idea that dressing as worldlings dress will give value to our influence. The ornamentation of the person with jewels and luxurious things is a species of idolatry. This needless display reveals a love for those things which are supposed to place a value upon the person. It gives evidence to the world of a heart destitute of the inward adornment. Expensive dress and adornments of jewelry give an incorrect representation of the truth that should always be represented as of the highest value. An overdressed, outwardly adorned person bears the sign of inward poverty. A lack of spirituality is revealed. {6MR 159.2}

Extravagance in dress requires the expenditure of means that is needed to advance the work of the Lord. Extra ribbons and bows mean pennies and shillings spent needlessly. The trimming of ladies' hats with high-standing bows is a needless expense, and it is unbecoming to a Christian. In the house of God the overtrimmed hats are a positive annoyance. The congregation desire to see the face of the speaker as well as to hear his voice; but the ladies' hats with their high-standing ribbons and bows, obscure the view. Many in the congregation may be seen peering this way and that to get a glimpse of the speaker; but often their efforts are in vain. Their enjoyment of the service is marred, and the minister, who observes all this, is disturbed. {6MR 160.1}

Satan has a snare laid to captivate unwary souls by leading them to give more attention to the outward adorning than to the inward graces which love of truth and righteousness display as the fruit borne upon the Christian tree. If the enemy can keep the minds of believers centered upon their dress and outward appearance, he is well pleased. They injure their influence, and the cause of truth which they profess to love. {6MR 160.2}

Many indulge a passion for dress. They spend their money for that which is not bread, and are as foolish as was Esau, who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Many bar their own souls from entering the strait gate because they cannot indulge their love for display and yet believe in Christ and walk in his footsteps. {6MR 160.3}

"If any man will come after me," said Christ, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Self denial and self-sacrifice will mark the Christian's life. Evidence that the taste is really converted will be seen in the dress of all who walk the narrow path of holiness, the path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord to walk in. {6MR 160.4}

Christians should not neglect to search the Scriptures on these points. They need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. Those who are earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired of God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. Their dress bears its testimony to their own family, to the church and the world, that they are being purified from vanity and selfishness. They demonstrate that they are not idolaters. {6MR 161.1}

Wherever the grace of humility, a meek and quiet spirit, is cherished, the whole person will express the same. The grace of Christ in the heart finds expression in a dignified, decorous deportment. The truth is manifest in the flesh. And truth lived always has an influence in favor of the truth, testifying of practical godliness. All such experiences are of the highest value. The usefulness of the Christian testifies to the genuineness of his conversion. {6MR 161.2}

As those who claim to believe the truth give expression to the truth in appropriate dress and in their words and conduct, they are living epistles for God, known and read by all who behold them. Their chaste conversation is a sign of the inward adorning. They have enlarged influence; a field of usefulness is ever open before them. They are as signs in the world, perpetuating a saving knowledge of divine truth, as salt that has not lost its savour. {6MR 161.3}

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,"--the same Word that was in the beginning with God, and was God. Through his own life in human nature, Christ has revealed to us his methods of usefulness in saving souls. His character is to be revealed in his followers. The reception of the great testing truths for these last days never makes the receiver coarse and rough and uncourteous, harsh in conversation and spirit. The truth genuinely believed is a reality to the receiver. It never degrades, but always refines, elevates, and ennobles the receiver. Through sanctification of the Spirit it makes him an agency through whom the unseen angels of God work out his holy principles. {6MR 162.1}

The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. Faithful, Christian men and women should have an intense interest to bring the convicted soul to a correct knowledge of righteousness in Christ Jesus. If any have allowed the desire of pleasure or the love of dress to become supreme, so that any portion of their mind, soul, and strength, is devoted to selfish indulgences, the faithful believers should watch for these souls as they that must give an account. They must not neglect the faithful, tender, loving instruction so essential to the young converts, that there may be no half-hearted work. The very first experiences should be right. If those who have been long in the way will try to help the one who is just beginning the Christian course, they will often be as the Lord's living agencies. All who will be true and faithful in the performance of their duty are representatives of Christ, the true Shepherd. If all realized the conflict which each soul must wage with Satanic agencies that are seeking to ensnare and entice and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor done for those who are young in the faith. {6MR 162.2}

The atmosphere of the world is charged with spiritual malaria. All who accept of Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour must count themselves dead to all things in their life conduct that Christ would not approve. These newborn souls seldom have sufficient instruction. They are left too much to themselves, and are often tempted, and do not discern the evil of the temptation. Let these souls newly come to the faith feel that it is their privilege to solicit counsel. If they seek the society of those who can help them, they will soon possess the refined taste that will ever choose the company of those who love and fear God. Our conversation with these souls should be of a spiritual, encouraging character. The Lord marks the conflict of every weak, doubting, struggling soul, and he will help all who call upon him. They will see heaven open before them, and angels of God ascending and descending the ladder of shining brightness which they are trying to climb. {6MR 163.1}

After the believing soul has received the ordinance of baptism, he is to bear in mind that he is dedicated to God, to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. These three all cooperate in the great work of the covenant made by baptism in the sight of the heavenly universe. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit receive the believing soul into covenant relation with God. {6MR 163.2}

All who study the life of Christ and practice his teaching will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. They are established in the faith, and will not be overcome by the devil because of vanity and pride. They seek to walk the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God. Their character exerts an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of his work. {6MR 163.3}

By the reception of the doctrines revealed and the performance of the duties required in the word of God, the professed followers of Christ are to witness to the world of their unity with Christ. They are to show that they have been given to Christ by his Father, and are overcomers through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. They love him who hath redeemed them. They increase in knowledge of Christ through exemplifying his character. And they cherish expectations that will not be disappointed: they expect to see his face and to rejoice in the sunshine of his countenance. {6MR 164.1}

In these thoroughly converted souls the world has a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. Through them Christ makes known to the world his character and will. In the lives of God's children is revealed the blessedness of serving the Lord, and the opposite is seen in those who do not keep his commandments. The line of demarkation is distinct. All who obey God's commandments are kept by his mighty power amid the corrupting influence of the transgressors of his law. From the lowliest subject to the highest in positions of trust, they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. {6MR 164.2}

In his prayer to the Father, Christ says of his followers, "The glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them as thou hast loved me." O what possibilities and probabilities are for God's people if they will humble themselves and exalt the Lord Jesus. {6MR 164.3}

In his prayer the Saviour says further, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." {6MR 165.1}

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the very key that opens to us the portals of heaven, that we may obtain eternal life, an immortal inheritance, and eternal substance. All who have this knowledge are constantly advancing heavenward. They have a good report in their own family, in the church, and in the world.--Ms 56, 1900. ("Preparation for Baptism," typed August 12, 1900.) {6MR 165.2}

The principles of righteousness must be implanted in the soul. The faith must grasp the power of Jesus Christ, else there is no safety. Licentious practices are getting to be as common as in the days before the flood. Not one should be buried with Christ by baptism unless they are critically examined whether they have ceased to sin, whether they have fixed moral principles, whether they know what sin is, whether they have moral defilement which God abhors. Find out by close questioning if these persons are really ceasing to sin, if with David they can say, I hate sin with a perfect hatred.--Letter 26d, 1887, p. 6. (To "Brother Covert and those who hold responsible positions in the Indiana Conference," September 27, 1887.) {6MR 165.3}

My burden is that ministers of the gospel shall preach the truth as to what constitutes true conversion. They are not to lead down into the water souls who are not converted. The church is becoming composed of men and women who have never realized how sinful sin is.--Letter 134, 1899, p. 5. (To "Dear Brethren in America," September 8, 1899). {6MR 166.1}

Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. They have pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the saving of sinners. God asks those who name his name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of my Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in accordance with the momentous claims of eternity?--Ms 63, 1901, p. 8. (Diary, April 30, 1901). {6MR 166.2}

No one is to take part in the solemn ordinance of baptism without giving the subject careful, prayerful thought. The candidates, and especially the youth, are to be carefully instructed in regard to the obligations they assume in taking this step. They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God's service; and the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them.--Ms 118, 1902, pp. 1, 2. ("Christ's Method of Imparting Truth," October 6, 1902). {6MR 166.3}

The world has no claim to our service; for by a solemn, holy covenant we accepted God's badge of service at the time of our baptism. On that occasion we pledged ourselves, in the presence of the three great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate.--Ms 130, 1902, p. 4. (Diary, October 27, 1902). {6MR 167.1}

In receiving baptism, the human agent, inspired with new purposes, pledges himself to die to the world and live in obedience to Christ. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness.--Letter 200, 1902, p. 7. (To Brother and Sister Kress, December 15, 1902). {6MR 167.2}

Our churches are becoming enfeebled by receiving for doctrines the commandments of men. Many are received into the church who are not converted. Men, women, and children are allowed to take part in the solemn rite of baptism without being fully instructed in regard to the meaning of this ordinance. Participation in this ordinance means much, and our ministers should be careful to give each candidate plain instruction in regard to its meaning and its solemnity.--Ms 10, 1905, p. 4. ("Non-essential Subjects to Be Avoided," September 12, 1904.)

Released August 13, 1974. {6MR 167.3}

M: Do you agree with this counsel?

T: You already asked if I agreed with her counsel, and I already answered. Don't you recall this? Do you recall how I answered?

M: Also, do you think one or more of the 28 fundamental beliefs may contain errors that later on will be corrected?

T: I don't think I would put it that way. I think there is light yet to shine that hasn't been explained in the fundamental beliefs.

M:Do you think the 28 fundamental beliefs represent truth?

T: Not in the same sense as Scripture or the SOP. I don't think there's anything magical about them. They are simply a statement of beliefs.

M:I have no idea what you believe.

T: I do not believe the 28 fundamental beliefs represent truth in the same was as Scripture or the SOP. I think they are a statement of beliefs.

M:Do you believe the 28 fundamental beliefs correctly reflect the truth?

T: Does this mean something different than if I believe the 28 fundamental beliefs to be true?

M:Or, do you think it is entirely possible we could discover truth sometime in future that will uncover mistakes we now mistakenly hold to be true?

T: If this is a general question, yes, this is what the SOP wrote, and I agree with what she wrote. That is, she wrote that only heaven is infallible, and there could well be things we have held as truths that we need to give up, something like that. Light is progressive. If we had everything right, Christ would have come, is what I think.

M: You wrote, “It's not so much that the Holy Spirit withholds truth as He needs people that are willing to respond to it.” “Would it do any good to reveal truth to someone who could not understand it?” “That being said, there are certainly times when light shines in a special way, such as 1888.” Do you think the 28 fundamental beliefs reflect the 1888 message?

T: No, not specifically.

M: Do you think light yet to shine will undo or undermine the 28 fundamental beliefs?

T: No.

M: Or, do you think it will clarify them?

T: I think that's quite possible.

M: If so, will it enable us to cease sinning in ways we are now ignorant of?

T: I think there is much more involved in the cleansing of the sanctuary than what people are aware of. Jones and Waggoner discussed this. I was going to say especially Jones, but Waggoner discussed the concepts involved at length as well. I would say that light can bring to our attention things that we weren't aware of previously.

M:Do you think we are sinning ignorantly because the Holy Spirit has been unable to reveal certain truths?

T: What do you mean by the Holy Spirit being unable to reveal certain truths?

M:Seems to me you believe the Holy Spirit is withholding new light for reasons that make sense to Him. You haven’t said what those reasons are.

T: I did above, right? Quoted here, by you.

M:At any rate, the light that is yet to shine, do you think it will enable us to cease sinning in ways we are now ignorant of?

T: I would put it this way. There is light that we need in order to proclaim the message that needs to be proclaimed to prepare for Christ's coming.

M:You wrote, “If you mean that there is nothing that the could possibly do which violates one of the last six commandments in any way that they might not be aware of, I think such a view would have to be based on a very superficial idea of what constitutes sin.” Again, please name a sin you believe falls into this category, that is, a sin that they have no idea before, during, or immediately afterward is a sin.

T: What you wrote about Luther covers this fine.

M:I disagree. Luther was not guilty of sinning ignorantly as it relates to the Jews.

T: So the things that Luther wrote were OK? In harmony with God's will? There was no ignorance involved on Luther's part?

M: Can you think of any other example “which violates one of the last six commandments in any way that they might not be aware” before, during, or immediately afterward is a sin?

T: Yes. I've provided you lists of this. But Luther's case is sufficient to discuss I think. Luther also drank beer. Do you see drinking beer as a sinful habit?